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this post was submitted on 23 Dec 2024
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For additional context, one of the reason for the delay and cost increase was the absurdly complex design due to French and German companies trying to collaborate on a new design as Germany was turning anti-nuclear, which culminated with Germany deciding to stop nuclear energy after the Fukushima Daiichi event.
Another big reason is the knowledge loss due to almost one generation without any reactor built in between.
Hey, you don't know where the next tsunami will happen. Have to be proactive.
The real irony being that all Japanese reactors shut down due to the quake as designed, and the tsunami wouldn't have been a factor had money not been saved by shortcutting backup generator protection from flooding in a FLOOD ZONE.
This just serves as a lesson to the "failsafe technology" crowd: That also involves failsafe humans. Those, to the best of my knowledge, have yet to be invented.
Oh and relatedly some German reactor ran for decades without a backup power generator. It was there, present, physically, that is, but noone bothered to check whether it actually worked. Merkel justified her flip-flop on the nuclear exit (shortly before Fukushima, she delayed the exit that SPD+Greens had decided on) by saying, more or less, "If the Japanese can't do it we can't do it either" but if she had been paying attention, it should've been clear that we couldn't do it. That became clear when the first SPD+Green coalition moved responisibity for nuclear safety from the ministry for economy to that for the environment, run by a Green, and they made a breakfast out of all that shoddy work that the operators had done. Oh the containment vessel is riveted... figures they put the rivets in the wrong way. Shut it down, have fun re-doing every single one of them before starting it up again.
Thus, my conclusion: The only people you can trust to run nuclear reactors safely are people who don't want nuclear reactors to exist in the first place.
Human failsafes have been invented. Every nuclear silo has one: two, independent people, with unique keys, have to both agree to launch. Otherwise, it fails safe, and no launch. Even with valid launch orders.
Are you trying to tell us it's impossible for these two humans to fail at the same time? There's some physical law preventing them from receiving false information and acting on it? They can't be manipulated or forced to do things they don't want to?
That's the kind of failsafe GP was talking about. Not "99% safe except for rare circumstances", but actually 100% safe.
Well, it hasn't failed yet...
The tower of playing cards I built this morning also hasn't failed yet, so logically we should link nuclear launch codes to it collapsing. After all, it seems to be a perfect system.
Or you could try actually thinking about the point GP was making.
So, you have done a trial of one, fir a few hrs, with no testing.
Other human failsafe have been repeatedly tested, thousands of times over, over decades.
Hell, the simple Deadman switch is a human failsafe: hold this latch, otherwise machine stops....
Are you willfully missing the point, or is this accidental?
No, not at all. You are missing the point, I think. Human failsafes do work. They are even easier to make and more effective if you remove capitalism from the equation, though.
Wow, okay, you're really missing the point.
Something is either 100% failsafe, or it isn't. If there is even a tiny chance that something will fail, it isn't failsafe in the context of GPs point. We're not talking about "realistic chances" or something here - we're talking about actual physical laws.
Humans aren't failsafe, because they've failed plenty of times, and can still fail plenty of times. Sure, no accidental nuclear launches have been done, but that doesn't mean they can't happen. Both of the humans involved can develop a psychosis at the same time, at which point the system has failed. This even being a possibility means that the system isn't failsafe. It doesn't matter whether it already happened or will ever happen.
The reason we're taking this strict distinction is that human failsafes have failed plenty of times. People in Germany got to know this very well through Chernobyl. There were failsafes in place, and they didn't work due to human error. That's why proponents of nuclear energy are focusing on this point - changes in the design of modern nuclear reactors make it literally physically impossible for the same thing to happen. I'm not talking about a 99.999999999% chance that it won't happen, I'm talking about 100%.
Just to be sure, I'll repeat it again: human failsafes have failed in the past, and humans can fail in every situation. You won't believe how many people lost fingers, hands or even arms in spite of a dead man switch that should prevent it. There are plenty of examples of systems that, according to you, should be 100% safe, yet they failed. Because humans can fail.
You're right. Not 100% failsafe is failproof.
Another way to put it is 100% failproof is failsafe, by definition.
For example, my nuclear launch failsafe, is an example of a human failsafe, that works 100% of the time, unless both humans agree to the launch.
And yes, human supervision can, and should be, the final fail safe for any critical system.
And yes, human failsafes work, when properly designed, and implemented. That's what "fail safe" means. ie, a PBR reactor is "fail safe" by design, as if anything happens, the pebble pile collapses, and criticality cannot be maintained, without a human intervening. No human, no criticality.
And there were very few, if any human fail safes in the Chernobyl incident, which is a huge reason it failed. And the reactor was not designed to fail safe. Modern reactors are designed to fail safe. Which means they cannot maintain criticality without human intervention.
Something tells me you're not very up on engineering principles, because fail safes, including human ones, are used all the time. Like bridges that raise and lower, for example. The bridge CAN NOT rise unless someone is there, holding the button. And it will start a safe descent if the human releases the button. It fails in a safe manner, without human intervention.
Oh, you're actually just trolling. Almost got me, nice one.