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cross-posted from: https://feddit.nl/post/16246531

I feel like we need to talk about Lemmy's massive tankie censorship problem. A lot of popular lemmy communities are hosted on lemmy.ml. It's been well known for a while that the admins/mods of that instance have, let's say, rather extremist and onesided political views. In short, they're what's colloquially referred to as tankies. This wouldn't be much of an issue if they didn't regularly abuse their admin/mod status to censor and silence people who dissent with their political beliefs and for example, post things critical of China, Russia, the USSR, socialism, ...

As an example, there was a thread today about the anniversary of the Tiananmen Massacre. When I was reading it, there were mostly posts critical of China in the thread and some whataboutist/denialist replies critical of the USA and the west. In terms of votes, the posts critical of China were definitely getting the most support.

I posted a comment in this thread linking to "https://archive.ph/2020.07.12-074312/https://imgur.com/a/AIIbbPs" (WARNING: graphical content), which describes aspects of the atrocities that aren't widely known even in the West, and supporting evidence. My comment was promptly removed for violating the "Be nice and civil" rule. When I looked back at the thread, I noticed that all posts critical of China had been removed while the whataboutist and denialist comments were left in place.

This is what the modlog of the instance looks like:

Definitely a trend there wouldn't you say?

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Proof:

So many of you will now probably think something like: "So what, it's the fediverse, you can use another instance."

The problem with this reasoning is that many of the popular communities are actually on lemmy.ml, and they're not so easy to replace. I mean, in terms of content and engagement lemmy is already a pretty small place as it is. So it's rather pointless sitting for example in /c/linux@some.random.other.instance.world where there's nobody to discuss anything with.

I'm not sure if there's a solution here, but I'd like to urge people to avoid lemmy.ml hosted communities in favor of communities on more reasonable instances.

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[-] fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee 70 points 20 hours ago

I wonder how many good, reasonable people have checked out Lemmy and seen all the CCP/Kremlin propaganda then just left.

[-] SorteKanin@feddit.dk 12 points 15 hours ago

I mean, lead them to instances that defederate hexbear for starters? Seems reasonable anyway.

[-] maxenmajs@lemmy.world 34 points 19 hours ago

I was close to leaving. At first I'd been given the impression that "liberal" is a dirty word on Lemmy. It helps that PSAs like this one routinely appear on other instances to inform newcomers. Just keep spreading the knowledge and let it be known that everybody should block those communities.

[-] Hadriscus@lemm.ee 7 points 14 hours ago

same, that was a weird first impression.

[-] aasatru@kbin.earth 25 points 18 hours ago

I often see people say that pointing new users towards instances with a lax attitude to defederation is a good idea. I kind of understand the rationale, but I'm not sure I agree. Pointing new users to an instance federated with Hexbear seems to me to be a terrible idea.

[-] OpenStars@discuss.online 12 points 15 hours ago

Blaze for example blocks all the political communities. That's... ... ... not entirely a normal thing that people are most likely to do and moreover to never not do that.

Btw, lemmy.cafe is literally the only instance I've ever even so much as heard of that blocks all of the big 3, including lemmy.ml.

[-] OpenStars@discuss.online 27 points 19 hours ago

Personally I am sitting at 100% of the people who I mention Lemmy to irl doing so. Not only that, but they actually gave me dirty looks and admonished me for even so much as mentioning it. It is easy for us who have blocked such to forget but... the day-1 experience for someone new can be quite shocking. e.g. just search for the word "guillotine", preferably from an instance you are not logged into, to see all the calls for literal and actual (and not joking... not really) murder of people who participate in such wildly anti-communist practices as ... "have bank accounts".

Though maybe X is just as bad these days? I dunno, I never had an account even when it was Twitter:-D. In any case, it is grandfathered into the public consciousness, and the devil you know... you know? :-P

[-] fuckingkangaroos@lemm.ee 13 points 17 hours ago

Yeah, I imagined basically exactly that happening and decided not to tell anyone about it, not yet anyway. Also, I don't want them to get death threats from Hexbear like I did...

[-] OpenStars@discuss.online 11 points 16 hours ago

Yeesh, I am so sorry that happened to you - tankies are just the worst, aren't they? You could literally put a URL to those exact conversations and they would still come back with "well no, see, we aren't that way at all bc... shut up!" They enjoy all the drama that they stir up - it's the point (go read the actual sidebar text of Chapotraphouse and the_dunk_tank and their posts e.g. talking about defederating with the rest of Lemmy, except no they actually don't want to do that for the simple reason that it provides moar people "to dunk on" - let me know if you want the receipt for that statement and I'll dig it up).

It is somehow worse than talking to Trump supporters, bc at least those believe in something, as opposed to existing solely for the purpose of "the dunk".

And then it's so sad that the rest of Lemmy tolerates it. Not the communism mind you, I'm talking about the dunking and other harassment.

Well, we learn at least, not to mention Lemmy to people irl. It's so sad that it must be that way... it severely limits our growth, but it is what it is.:-(

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[-] halm@leminal.space 171 points 1 day ago

Just to weigh in here with a bit of political nuance — "tankies" are certainly defined by their leftist politics, but moreso by their apologist defense of regimes that more or less transparently use socialist or communist maxims as a cover for state capitalism or straight out autocracy.

Tankies may be the loudest voices to claim themselves Marxist or socialist, but please don't mistake them as actually representing those ideologies truthfully or completely. Personally, I see tankies as more indebted to a cold war-style school of Soviet dogma transplanted to current autocracies. Marx and Trotsky would have rolled their eyes at either.

[-] socsa@piefed.social 12 points 16 hours ago

This is why it's so frustrating, because tankies being overrepresented in online leftist spaces is one of the things which harms the acceptance of leftist ideals more than most of their imperialist windmills.

People aren't scared away from socialism by economic democracy, egalitarianism or radical direct action. They are scared away by confrontational and aggressive tankies defending tyrants, who seem to care more about relitigating random cold war drama than lifting up workers.

[-] slaacaa@lemmy.world 66 points 23 hours ago

Yes, I hate to be “no true Scotsman”, but they are not actually leftists, just fan of a few dictatorships, some of which claim or used to claim to be socialist.

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[-] MyOpinion@lemm.ee 51 points 21 hours ago

Yes avoid .ml and hexbear and life is mostly good here.

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[-] db0@lemmy.dbzer0.com 44 points 20 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

When I called them out on their one sided censorship, with a screenshot of the modlog above, I promptly received a community ban on all communities on lemmy.ml that I had ever participated in.

Note, that just means you were sitebanned. This is how the software displays this.

Also !yepowertrippinbastards@lemmy.dbzer0.com

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[-] helloworld55@lemm.ee 17 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

Frankly, who cares? If you don't want to see or participate in tankie propoganda, then don't. People point out that lemmy.ml is the hub for a lot of communities, so it isn't reasonable to switch to another instance. And then they bring up communities like !Linux@lemmy.ml Guess what, Linux isn't meant to be a hub for political discourse, and for the most part, it isn't. Use lemmy.ml how you want to use it, and if you want to participate in other political leanings, go to a different instance. No one is really stopping you, and that's the whole idea of the fediverse. And there really isn't any value lost, because this isn't a "choose one and only one" situation. You've got all of the fediverse at your fingertips

So this came off a bit abrasive. But the point I want to convey is that if you want to have deep/heated political discourse, either do that on a community (and instance) suitable for it, or use an account specifically for political discussion. I think it helps everyone. The mods can referee communities with more clear boundaries, the lurkers/users don't need to worry about political debates when looking up tech support or whatever, and you (the reader/political dissident) can still enjoy your discussions with less worry about being randomly banned.

[-] bear@slrpnk.net 9 points 13 hours ago* (last edited 13 hours ago)

Use lemmy.ml how you want to use it, and if you want to participate in other political leanings, go to a different instance. No one is really stopping you, and that's the whole idea of the fediverse. And there really isn't any value lost, because this isn't a "choose one and only one" situation. You've got all of the fediverse at your fingertips.

Until you make the mistake of replying with the wrong kind of comment to the wrong sub, and get banned from the entire instance and lose the ability to post on many of the largest subs on this side of the fediverse. Or maybe they just see you out and about and decide to ban you on sight because they don't like what you said. There's nothing stopping that.

Admin overreach and abuse is a major issue for the fediverse because it affects more than just the user in question. Admins of large instances get to decide who has access to the users and communities on their instances, and very often the users of the instance aren't even aware of the actions taken on their behalf. Mastodon recently implemented a notification for when blocks and defederation remove your follows or followers, and this is a great first step. Users deserve to know when they are impacted by decisions such as these.

I love the fediverse and want to see it thrive, so we need to stop putting our heads in the sand on this issue. It's always discussed as if it's an issue with a few problematic instances rather than the systemic issue in need of a solution that is is. Admins need the tools to protect their instances from real abuse, but we need to balance that with the right of the users to know what's going on and not be unfairly deprived of the social aspect of this social media experiment, especially without knowing.

[-] EatATaco@lemm.ee 3 points 10 hours ago

It's shocking to me when people say that reddit moderators are more overbearing than here. They'll literally ban you for how you vote here. Lol

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this post was submitted on 20 Oct 2024
363 points (83.5% liked)

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