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25 Tanks And Fighting Vehicles, Gone In A Blink: The Ukrainian Defeat Near Mala Tokmachka Was Worst Than We Thought (www.forbes.com)
submitted 2 years ago by yogthos@lemmy.ml to c/ukraine@lemmy.ml
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[-] Incoherent@feddit.nl 1 points 2 years ago

From the article:

But the British-made plows on the Leopard 2Rs and Wisent clearly missed more than a few mines. Three Leopard 2Rs and a Wisent struck mines, as did several M-2s. Trapped and under fire, the battlegroup fell apart. Crews bailed out of their disabled vehicles, dragging their dead and wounded with them. A rescue force riding in M-2s scooped up many of the survivors.

This reads as materiel failure or usage failure which is unfortunate with "new" equipment. Which is to be expected, and can be remedied by learning the correct lessons. Something that both sides seem to be capable of in this conflict.

To Tokmak and beyond

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

After 4 weeks of remedying it, Ukraine failed to even reach the first line of actual defences. The plan was to have a big breakthrough on the first day, that simply hasn't happened. Now, Ukraine is back to fighting a war of attrition that favors Russia. Incidentally, there was an excellent article by a senior NATO analyst explaining the differences between the way Ukraine and Russia are fighting the war and why what we're seeing favors Russia https://www.russiamatters.org/analysis/whats-ahead-war-ukraine

[-] ilikehorse@lemmy.ml 2 points 2 years ago

Jeez you're a gleeful fellow. Assuming you are right and the Ukrainians are actually failing in their counteroffensive, what the hell are they supposed to do? Throw their hands up and go, okay ruskis, I guess we can't throw you out of the country, how about we give up some more territory and call it peace? If they fail and they are up for resisting and going another round, we should give them everything we can spare. Even ignoring the moral aspect, we can't let Russia gain anything from this war.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -5 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

Seems like the one who's gleeful here is the one who wrote "To Tokmak and beyond". I'm simply stating the basic facts about the offensive. What Ukraine should've obviously done was to avoid the war by agreeing to neutrality. Then when they failed to do that, they should've accepted the terms they were offered in March and we now know they signed and then reneged on. The longer this war goes on the more territory and people Ukraine loses, and eventually there just isn't going to be an Ukraine left. Nobody in Ukraine actually benefits from the continuation of this war, yet western ghouls keep cheering this on.

Meanwhile, there is zero evidence that anything the west has done so far has deterred Russia in any way. And as Obama explained back in 2016 there is no prospect that the west will defeat Russia in Ukraine:

Obama declares Ukraine to be not a core American interest and that he is reluctant to intervene in the country, because Russia will always be able to maintain escalatory dominance there. “The fact is that Ukraine, which is a non-NATO country, is going to be vulnerable to military domination by Russia no matter what we do.”

What will eventually happen is that US will decide that this war is too costly to keep going and pull out just like they've done with every other war in the past. US support is literally the only thing that keeps the whole thing going right now.

[-] ilikehorse@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago* (last edited 2 years ago)

So you really think this was only brought on by Ukraine and the west, Russia did not have any choice but to attack? Give me a fucking break.

No one in the west was looking for a confrontation with Russia. I don't want to rehash the entire story, it is well known outside your imaginary world: it was Putin's choice to attack and Russian complacency that made it real and lasting.

Yes, the US are critical for pushing back on the Russians, but the Europeans slowly got their act together. You can't imagine what a shock this has been for Europeans (Germans in particular), so their reluctance to act is understandable yet regrettable. So no, I don't think we'll lose interest, but also I don't know how things will turn out. I just know what needs to be done now.

BTW, I'm sorry but I cannot keep from being quite disgusted with people like you, who try to excuse and explain Russia's behaviour as having been pressured on the West. After the countless war crimes, Bucha, Irpin, attacks on civilians and civilian infrastructure, and all their nameless victims, it just makes me sick to hear how people try to rationalise Russian crimes.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -3 points 2 years ago

I don't know if you're just shamefully ignorant or intentionally lying, but what you're saying is demonstrably false.

Let's start with the fact that RAND published an actual paper on extending Russia which outlines precisely the scenario we're seeing.

Plenty of western experts have been saying this for many decades. This only became controversial to mention after the war started. Here's what Chomsky has to say on the issue recently:

https://truthout.org/articles/us-approach-to-ukraine-and-russia-has-left-the-domain-of-rational-discourse/

https://truthout.org/articles/noam-chomsky-us-military-escalation-against-russia-would-have-no-victors/

Academics such as John Mearsheimer gave entire lectures on the subject https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JrMiSQAGOS4

50 prominent foreign policy experts (former senators, military officers, diplomats, etc.) sent an open letter to Clinton outlining their opposition to NATO expansion back in 1997:

George Kennan, arguably America's greatest ever foreign policy strategist, the architect of the U.S. cold war strategy warned that NATO expansion was a "tragic mistake" that ought to ultimately provoke a "bad reaction from Russia" back in 1998.

Jack F. Matlock Jr., US Ambassador to the Soviet Union from 1987-1991, warning in 1997 that NATO expansion was "the most profound strategic blunder, [encouraging] a chain of events that could produce the most serious security threat [...] since the Soviet Union collapsed"

Even Gorbachev warned about this. All these experts were marginalized, silenced, and ignored. Yet, now people are trying to rewrite history and pretend that Russia attacked Ukraine out of the blue and completely unprovoked.

The only thing disgusting here is ignorant people such as yourself cheering on a war that's killing thousands of people and ruining lives of million of others. If you want this war to keep going, then go and volunteer and put your deplorable ass on the line. Wanting other people to die so that your ideology prevails is beyond deplorable.

[-] Potatofish@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Only a few words are necessary in response to your wall of text. You are ridiculous. It's sad to see someone put so much effort into being so disgusting.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -1 points 2 years ago

Frankly I don't care one bit about what you might think. What presented are basic facts, and if you can't engage with reality then your opinion is not worth considering.

[-] Drewfro66@lemmygrad.ml 0 points 2 years ago

An excellent, well-sourced response wasted on the person you are replying to. Remember that lurkers are watching and appreciating.

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml 0 points 2 years ago

Thanks, good to know at least some people are reading things critically.

[-] Dreyns@lemmy.ml 1 points 2 years ago

Holy shit man i was hesitating in blocking you seeing how many dubious articles you post but now this ? Honestly : fuck you

[-] yogthos@lemmy.ml -4 points 2 years ago

I'm sorry that stating facts makes you upset.

this post was submitted on 29 Jun 2023
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