-3
China raises five demands during Yellen’s visit
(asiatimes.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 11 Jul 2023
-3 points (20.0% liked)
World News
32220 readers
390 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
China has been stealing technology and design for decades and got sanctioned. That's what happens.
Demand all you want, but nobody's going to trust you enough to deal as long as you keep advocating for corporate espionage against "trade partners."
Conducting a cultural genocide isn't helping, of course, but really even just the theft of data and technology is enough.
Considering the US built itself on a foundation of corporate espionage... Well, duh? Everyone does it, including American companies on other American companies. If your technology lags behind others, corporate espionage is the easiest way forwards. Globalization was supposed to slow down corporate espionage by making the technology more easily available (as evidenced by the relatively mundane technology that gets stolen today), but that's unraveling.
Corporate espionage is reason for sanctioning companies, not countries. If your IP is necessary for national security, it should be owned by the government and protected as such. Otherwise, I have no sympathy for private profit-driven companies losing their competitive advantage because of decades of underfunding on their cyber security systems.
The "relatively mundane technology that gets stolen today"? Like hypersonic missile guidance systems? Every type of personal data of entire populations? Turbines that power literally every major source of power the US and China have been using since they started using electricity?
These are not mundane technologies.
As for sanctioning companies rather than countries, if the companies who steal this tech are owned by the government, in whole or part, this is not a "private" theft. This is state-owned theft. Malicious action of one state against another.
Yes, the US should invest more in cybersecurity, but blaming the victim is a poor justification for theft.
Oh no! Not a troubleshooting robot! Whatever will they do...
Again, if it's a state secret that's important for national security, it should be protected by the government. It doesn't matter who's attacking (because, y'know, crown corporations exist and can be sanctioned as individual entities), but it matters who's defending. An attack against T-Mobile's troubleshooting robot or Rivian's electric vehicle is not an attack against the US. Private companies operate in a domain where corporate espionage is prevalent. Expecting corporate espionage to not happen is silly.
Corporate espionage is how Korea (Samsung, etc.), Taiwan (TSMC), Japan (Hitachi, etc.), and China jump-started their economies. Hell, it's how the US jump-started it's economy and was an act that Alexander Hamilton strongly supported.
Often times it's state-sponsored or state-condoned and certainly partially state-owned (simply because the economies of these countries are intricately tied into the success of these companies, and these companies receive significant government investment through government-owned and government-managed funds).
For more, please see Hamilton's "Report on Manufacturing" here: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id=mdp.39015014667409;view=1up;seq=3
State secrets crosses the realm into true espionage and should be punished as such, but corporate espionage? If the technology is owned by a private company, it clearly was seen to be harmless enough for the state to not bother protecting.
Interesting how you ignored the theft of hypersonic missile software and metadata of entire populations, then went straight back to victim blaming.
"simply because the economies of these countries are intricately tied into the success of these companies, and these companies receive significant government investment through government-owned and government-managed funds" - yes, this is exactly my point. State-sponsored they of IP, specifically citizen data and weapons systems is not mundane and it's not okay.
Nobody expects theft not to happen, scarecrow, the problem is that country C is having threats against country A while stealing strategic and military data.
However you justify theft, theft is wrong, and in this case, dangerous. This is a bad thing that the Chinese government and companies are sponsoring. It doesn't matter that other entities do it too, it's still a bad thing.
Your incorrect argument is that because there is a LOT of rape, rape is fine. You are wrong. Rape is still horrific, malign behavior, regardless of how many people do it.
Your incorrect argument is that a rapist gets to make that determination. They don't. It's like saying "my rape was ok, but yours isn't!"
That's not how things work. It's either ok or it isn't.
Maybe if it was a country that didn't built it's entire economy on the back of corporate espionage, you might have a bit of an argument.
So your argument is repeating and agreeing with what I just told you: that a malicious act is malicious regardless of how many people do it. Thank you for conceding that point, however odd it is to frame my argument as your own argument. Given you're still taking my side, I'm fine with it..
And then right after that you vaguely argue against yourself that because one country commits corporate espionage, it's okay that other countries commit corporate espionage.
You're making a case in support of my argument that malicious acts are malicious regardless of how many people commit them, and then subsequently arguing against yourself, which I do appreciate, so thank you for your support!
Protip: try not to precisely paraphrase the argument the person you're arguing against has put forward, including their example, and then agree with their point and example; this will usually lead to you losing the argument.
There's no reason for country-level sanctions for private corporate espionage. It's that simple.
It doesn't matter if corporate espionage is malicious and it's frankly hypocritical for America to be calling out other countries' corporate espionage.
Glad you agree with my points, even if it took you four reiterations to understand them.
Nobody argued that there should be country level sanctions for private corporate espionage, weird that you keep focusing on arguments nobody has made.
Yes, of course it matters if the theft of military data by a hostile state is malicious. It is of the essence.
And no, victim blaming still won't get you anywhere.
I appreciate your support
Except that's exactly what you're calling for? You gave evidence of (presumably a Chinese telecom) stealing T-Mobile testing equipment as a reason for the sanctions.
That robot was stolen by Huawei, which is heavily subsidized by the CCP.
But what I have said repeatedly, regardless of your presumptive tangents, is that state level actions make a state responsible, and in the examples I gave, a hostile state has ownership ties to companies stealing energy production data and military data.
But... you don't consider T-Mobile, Apple, Intel, or Microsoft to be American state-sponsored companies despite their hundreds of billions in subsidies and tax incentives?
Odd.
The recent CHIPS act gave Intel what, like $20 billion in subsidies. Guess what? That's what governments do to stimulate economic growth.
Odder that you keep making false arguments and pretending they are my arguments.
This statement is literally irrelevant because, guess what, every reasonable country subsidizes their domestic industries. I've proven that and you're unwilling to accept that state-owned enterprises (which exist, by the way) are different from private companies.
I'll help you out: Intel is a private company. Amtrak is not. Alibaba is a private company, CRRC is not. Huawei is a private company, CNPC is not.
I'm sure everyone is very proud of you for repeating things that I stated previously in this thread and pretending they are your argument.
Wait right here, I'll find someone who can slow clap for you(I feel like you'll be able to understand the clap better that way).
So... you don't have an argument? Great!
An argument against you repeating what I said and agreeing with me?
No, I stand by what I said and you parroted.
so... you really do have no argument, huh? You claim that taking state subsidies makes a company state-sponsored.
I claim that that's stupid, because it means that Intel and Microsoft would be considered state-sponsored enterprises.
I don't have an argument against my own argument, no.
Regardless of what you claim I claim, you've already taken my side on all of this.
Thank you for your support!.
So, you really don't have an argument, huh?
Nah, China hasn't been stealing anything. Western companies made an explicit choice to do business in China at the cost of tech transfer. Today, China has long outpaced the west in many technological areas. Meanwhile, imagine still peddling cultural genocide conspiracy theories. If you want to see what actual cultural genocide looks like then go to US or Canada and see what settlers did to the indigenous population.
Here's when they stole military hardware specs:
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/chinese-hackers-took-trillions-in-intellectual-property-from-about-30-multinational-companies/
Here's when they stole turbine designs:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-64206950
Here's where s Chinese worker literally stole a troubleshooting robot from T-Mobile, Chinese companies stole electric vehicle designs, it just goes on and on:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/business/ct-biz-us-china-trade-war-ip-theft-20190221-story.html
Chinese companies steal constantly. Companies who work with them know that there will be technology transfer, not that there will be blatant, illegal theft Chinese individuals and companies regularly perpetrate.
Stealing tech is a good thing for everyone. What's the point of every country having to reinventing the wheel? Patents on tech and medicines are a crime against humanity.
Indeed, I'm completely against intellectual property as it holds back humanity as a whole for the benefit of enriching a small minority and creating inequality.
Why would anyone bother to work on anything if they couldn't exploit their invention or creation for money? Where would the money come from for R&D to fund the creation of further stuff if the last stuff was never able to break even?
That's not an answer is it?
It is, if you can't imagine how innovation happens outside of capitalism then educate yourself. Google exists, go read up on how socialist countries develop and innovate. For example, you can read up on how Cuba is one of the few countries in the world that managed to develop covid vaccines.
How many if those countries are in the top economies? The G7? The G20 even? If their systems are so good why are they not dominating the world financially?
That's a fallacious argument. US led empire has dominated the world up to now because US wasn't directly involved in WW2. While the rest of the world burned, US profiteered from the war and the reconstruction after. That's why the world looks the way it does today.
It's absolutely adorable that you think only Chinese companies do this, like corporate espionage doesn't exist in the west. 😂
Ah, making up new points that weren't asserted because you lost the argument. Classic yogi.
Corporate espionage occurs everywhere, It's just blatant with Chinese spies, case in point being that fellow who lifted up a robot and walked out of the T-Mobile laboratories with it.
You said that China doesn't commit corporate espionage and theft constantly so I listed half a dozen recent cases with actual evidence and convictions that show they do.
I didn't lose any argument. All companies steal tech from each other everywhere all the time. The claim you were trying to make is that China somehow steals from the west at state level as a policy. Today, China is way ahead of the west in many areas technologically, I guess using your galaxy brain logic they must be stealing it from the future.
The best part here is that you genuinely think you made a good and coherent point. 😂
yog since the moron liberal is on an instance that has lemmygrad blocked I can't send them this, can you give them these three articles: https://archive.is/gYjT9 https://archive.is/Y5ZBL https://archive.is/H7VRA
👍
You lied. I did not claim that China is stealing from the west at state level as a policy.
Today China is not technologically ahead of "the west." This is very easy to see if you look at the above links, showing the times that China has blatantly stolen basic design and tech that they shouldn't need if they were ahead of even just the US. Since China is behind the US technologically, they are constantly stealing designs and technology from the US.
Now we'll just ignore all the things that you are making up and focus on what actually happened.
You incorrectly claim that Chinese companies and spies do not constantly commit corporate espionage and steel technology and designs from the west.
Above, there are half a dozen clear cut recent examples of China stealing designs and technology from the west.
meanwhile in the real world 😂
Ah yes, their"potential" and 'possible" advancements.
These articles do not actually measure technology, they measure the amount of money the ccp is investing in tech in order to catch up with the US and articles published, regardless of the content.
When you discover the metrics by which these "leads" are established, it's easy to see why the "leading" country in 37 tech fields is so desperate to steal technology from the US.
Person B is a not a better painter than person A because they bought more paintbrushes.
😂
That is the worst nuclear grade cope I have ever seen, or they are illiterate and I feel bad for laughing