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Dog breed bans are about human prejudice — not the dogs
(www.vox.com)
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this post was submitted on 17 Oct 2023
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Because "mixed breed" dogs aren't a breed? That's my whole point.
What you're arguing is basically equivalent to this "psychopaths account for 26% of murderers, closely followed by people with brown eyes at 25%, why aren't we doing anything about the brown eyed menace!"
Lumping all mixed breed dogs just inflates the numbers, because - again - the vast majority of dogs are mixed breed.
Put another way, because I can tell you're having a hard time grasping this - mixed breed dogs account for 53% of all dogs in the US according to the AKC. Pit bulls account for just a hair under 6% (5.8, if you want the specifics). That means according to the stats in the article, any given pit bull is 10x more likely to bite than any given mixed breed dog.
Get it?
“Pit bull” isn’t a breed either.
American Pit Bull Terrier is a breed. It’s one of several collective breeds that people typically refer to when they use pit bull. The others being American Staffordshire Terrier, American Bully, Staffordshire Bull Terrier and sometimes the American Bulldog.
That term is also often used for mixed dogs that may have some amount of one of those breeds or that shares physical characteristics with one of those breeds, usually head and/or body shape.
Anecdotally, I have a neighbor whose neighbor on the other side called the police on him for having a “dangerous breed” dog. They told the police he had a pit bull. It was a boxer.
That's a fair point, but "pit bull" being comprised of several sub-breeds isn't even kind of the same sort of umbrella as "literally every dog that isn't a pure bred"
And your neighbor being an idiot really doesn't have any relevance on the discussion
They are not sub-breeds, they are breeds, and I never said it was the same. I simply pointed out that pit bull is not itself a breed. It would be closer to a classification than a breed.
Comparing and banning mixed breed dogs makes as much sense as comparing and banning pit bulls if you don’t actually define what breeds are intended by using “pit bull”. That’s why many statutes in the US specify breeds in the legislation.
Language is important, especially when you’re talking about legislation used to restrict or ban something. Particularly if your primary determinant is visual appearance since, unless the animal is a registered purebred or DNA tested, you’re relying on what the dog looks like.
I used my neighbors situation as an example of how “pit bull” is not a proper identifier by itself.
I don't disagree that specific language will need to be used when drafting laws with regards to what breeds (or what traits of which breeds) you'll be regulating the breeding of. Of course it would have to, otherwise any such law is unenforceable - not sure what in my previous comments would make you think otherwise.
In an online discussion though (which is to say, not a court room) I'd argue that you're more derailing the discussion by getting worked up over terminology as opposed to the actual issue.
Do you take issue with how the study were discussing, or the AKC define "pit bull"? Did you even read either study/census to see how they did so before just going "oh they aren't even defining it right so their data is nil". Or did you just decide that your neighbor being an idiot meant the entire scientific community was too?
I took issue with this because pit bull isn’t a breed either. You used a poor word choice, had it pointed out to you and now you’re getting defensive.
And for some reason you’re hung up on the neighbor anecdote.
You know what makes me think you don’t value the importance of language? Getting rudely defensive about mixed breeds it being a breed but using pit bull like it is.
I’m derailing the discussion? The topic is about dog breed bans and you’re using terminology that doesn’t refer to a dog breed.
I was trying to help you understand because it’s a common mistake but now it seems like you just want to be a dick.
I maintain that there is a world of difference between the grouping of breeds commonly referred to as Pitbull and the grouping of literally every single dog that isn't a purebred. You are correct that "Pitbull" doesn't necessarily refer to a specific breed, and I concede that point, I don't however see how that at all negates my point that targeted regulation of the breeding of dangerous, and cruel (see the Pug) breeds is a good practice, let the people who are far more knowledgeable about canine biology than either of us draw the specific lines of how and when that threshold is passed.
My frustration is that you're getting hung up on terminology while bypassing the actual points being made. I acknowledge (again ,because I already did so in my last comment) that when drafting actual legal documents, precise and correct language will be very important. For internet disucssions, a highly common, well understood shorthand for a group of breeds seems perfectly sufficient.
And if your core point is that perfectly docile breeds might be getting lumped in the "pit bull" category on these dog bite studies, let's run some hypothetical numbers on that. Let's say that half of the dogs reported as pitbulls are not actually belonging to any of the breeds known to have a tendency towards violence - because hey, as you point out, some people are stupid and will completely misreport dog breeds. That still makes them 5x more likely to bite than a mixed dog (per the math in my previous comment). Let's say only 20% of the reports accurately describe the attacking dog as a pitbull. Frankly, that's a ludicrously low assertion for the reporting accuracy, but hey - let's be generous. That still makes them 2x more likely to bite than a mixed dog.
If any of those estimates are the case it certainly raises questions about the safety of German shepards, but that's not really a surprise to anyone who knows the breed. Police and military all over the world don't use them as attack dogs for no reason.
I'm specifically talking about pitbulls, because that's what this thread is about, but I don't have anything against pitbulls specifically - I just think that we should be regulating the breeding of dogs more closely to prevent dangerous or cruel breeds from proliferating unchecked. You're welcome to disagree, but unless you have some study to disprove my core point here, I don't see you changing my mind on this point here anytime soon, and I agree with you that this conversation has gone sour, so I'm signing off.
I’m not reading your wall of text. You want to argue so badly you’re fabricating some stance I have on the issue of banning breeds.
The only issue I took was you telling someone mixed breeds aren’t a breed while you also are not referring to a breed.
That’s it. Go back and read my first reply to you. I corrected you, explained the correction, and added an anecdotal experience about “pit bull” being used to describe a dog of Boxer breed.
Might be time for an internet break.
Aight bud, have a good night lol