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Before and after satellite images show destruction in Gaza
(edition.cnn.com)
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this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2023
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... You want to spend a minimum of 200 million USD to airstrike breaches? That's grossly unrealistic.
But Russia didn't declare war when they invaded Crimea, likewise they didn't when it came to Ukraine. For Taiwan, it wouldn't be rightfully theirs, but they will still control it. But you see, that brings us back to the loop, where the Jews have historic claim to the land before Palestine but lost a war and were taken away from the land. That's why the two-state solution was really the only peaceful method of resolution, which the Arabs didn't accept.
Don't know who those people are.
Thank you! That is very disgusting behaviour, and Israel should do better. But again, as usual, Hamas did it first, killing paramedics during the massacre. Not that it's justified, it is not. Gaza, Israel--no one is innocent here.
What do you think I need to change my mind on?
There's a genocide, yes, it ticks enough of the ten stages to be one. Likewise, Gaza wishes to genocide Israel. However, Palestine, specifically Gaza, put itself in a difficult situation with poor choices like trying to overthrow neighbouring governments of friendly/neutral nations.
See I think we speak from Western privilege, where we can voice our opinions on these matters, but ultimately, we have no power and no input; we don't live there, and we don't experience the terror both groups feel and the hatred they have for one another. We can feel sadness, who wouldn't? But I think Westerners should shut up and just let what happens, happen, the land has been fought over for millennia, and it has nothing but death to show for it, will it stop?
If the West needs to get involved, at least accept refugees who are in favour of secularism, specifically the oppressed women and the children.
No they didn't. I wrote this in my other comment. Palestinians have the same historical claim as Israelis, if not better because Palestinians have lived there pretty continuously while a ton of Israelis, especially settlers, are from Europe and the US (born there). So if Israel wins it from Palestinians, it isn't rightfully theirs. If the Gaza militia's goals were to
Yeah? The US gives them billions of dollars per year, and just gave them more aid. Its time for them to stop using that to vaporize children.
Nat Turner and John Brown led slave revolts in the southern US before the Civil War. Both of them lost and were executed. Nat Turner's revolution in particular was very brutal and included killing children. When they lost their revolutions, it didn't make slavery all of a sudden OK.
There are a few problems with the two state solution. One, Palestinians have lived on this land for as far back as they can remember, you can't not allow them to return to their ancestral homes and then expect them to agree to that. Two, Israel has shown it does not care about where it is or isn't allowed to do stuff. As evidenced by the west bank. It would never respect the border. A secular one state solution is the only solution that would work at this point.
IMO there's a difference between indiscriminately shooting at everyone, and deliberately aiming an airstrike at medics. It isn't a big difference, but its there. Also you said "as usual, Hamas did it first." Are you referring to killing women, children, and other civilians, and committing other horrific acts? Because Israel was pretty much founded on that. They did much worse during the Nakba.
Maybe a few people want that, but Hamas wants a 2 state solution, and PIJ, the PFLP, and the DFLP have stated their goal is the destruction of the Israeli state, not the genocide of it's people. And the PFLP and DFLP are secular.
Hell PIJ is the most extremist one, and its leader has said he has "no problems living with Jewish people... We have lived together in peace for centuries. And if Netanyahu were to ask if we can live together in one state, I would say to him: "If we have exactly the same rights as Jews to come to all of Palestine. If Khaled Meshaal and Ramadan Shalah can come whenever they want, and visit Haifa, and buy a home in Herzliyah if they want, then we can have a new language, and dialogue is possible."" (according to wikipedia, this was part of an interview)
Nah it was actually peaceful under the Ottomans, who treated Jews Christians and Muslims pretty equally. There was pretty much just a tax for Christians and Jews. The "land has always been fought over" thing makes the situation sound hopeless, but really the British just fucked up the peace. As usual. Fuck the British.
Sure but black september was in 1970, the average age in Gaza is 18.
The west already is involved. I'm from the US. We send Israel billions of dollars every year to bomb children. If the west is gonna help solve this, we need to use that money to twist Israel's arm and force them to cooperate, but we won't because we like our forward operating base in the middle east.
I mean the first comment I responded to was you implying that Israel has no other options but commit horrific war crimes, that's the main thing I want to change your mind on.
Think we should just focus on one just issue/topic?
Yeah, I'm happy to talk about any of them so you can pick
Can we talk about defence? Particularly logistics and costs? Military isn't cheap.
Yeah I know its not cheap, but with all of the money the us is giving Israel, they should be able to afford it, or they can increase taxes, or idk take out a loan or something. The point is the cost isn't a valid reason to commit war crimes imo.
Well, the point is how can Israel, or the US, or any country, really--convince Hamas to cease its terrorism? There were decent attempts with the Oslo records, but then one terrorist attack, Palestine swearing for Israel's destruction and then Israel back onto the offensive.
I think the only way to achieve peace is for Israel to pull settlers out of the west bank, give palestinians a right of return, and pay all palestinians monetary reparations. I think the best solution is to establish one secular state, where everyone has equal rights. You cannot defeat this by airstriking people, or launching a ground invasion. It's like that one twitter user said, "I'm not a political expert but if you eliminated hamas but killed my whole family in the process my first move would be to start hamas 2"
You have to think about it from the perspective of Palestinians. They feel incredibly angry, and rightfully so. They're subject to apartheid in the west bank and they're stuck in an open air prison in Gaza. This makes them lash out in incredibly violent ways, because Israel has shown them that peaceful methods do not work. Obviously the way you stop this is by ending the apartheid and prison.
Israel says that the West Bank settlers are used for security checkpoints that keep terrorists from attacking out of the West Bank, considering the lower rate of terrorist attacks, it seems to work.
Though I agree. Israel should pull out of the West Bank entirely, though there is that risk of more terrorist attacks.
The UN tried in two separate accounts of making Jerasuelum a neutral secular state, both times Israel was all for it, and both times Palestine was against it, even declaring war they were against it that much. Mind you, Palestine didn't have a government back then, so it was terrorists declaring war.
Also I dislike the whole open-air prison sentiment when it came about from Palestinian Terrorists own doing, attacking their neighbours and trying to overthrow the local governments there.
I'm pretty sure the lower terrorist attacks is because of Fatah being in control instead of Hamas in the west bank. But either way, if crimes against humanity are how you prevent terrorism, u gotta reconsider lol. Glad we agree that settlers have to go. I think that would actually be one of the most significant steps towards ending Hamas.
I would be interested in reading more about the deals for a secular Jerusalem, I don't know much about that. I guess I could see how islamic fundamentalists would be opposed, but I have a feeling they have reasons other than just religion.
Regarding Gaza being an open air prison, it is, that's pretty much a fact. I'm not calling it a concentration camp or a ghetto, even though I think it might be one. Millions of innocent Palestinians are locked in there, along with some terrorists. There was a blockade even before Hamas took power, but now no Gazan can even import things like concrete. If there are a group of people that are locked into an area and they aren't allowed to leave by air land or sea, that area is a prison.
Just read the history of the Israeli-Palestine conflict on Wikipedia
I'm also curious, how much have you seen so far of the conflict? Particularly this year? Have you watched the massacre videos and Israel's response yet? I think watching footage of the massacre is a must-have, considering it's one of the most violent terrorist attacks of recent years.
I've seen a lot of violence on both sides that I wish I hadn't seen.
I looked through that wikipedia page, and most of the stuff about Jerusalem seems to be either both sides stopping negotiations, or more recently Israel wanting Palestinians to make concessions that they shouldn't have to make.
What were a few scenes that stuck with you?
There was one of a some vile Hamas pigs shooting a young woman in a car and dragging her body out while cheering. There was another of a child with his face burned off by white phosphorus or some other horrific weapon right next to his crying father. And there was one video from a few years ago, where a monster from the IDF snipes a child through a fence and treats it like a game. Those fucked me up.
I haven't seen that white phosphorus one. Able to DM a link at all?
Probably what fucked me up was a few different videos. Hamas slaughtering all of the civilians on the highways, inside their homes, recording themselves killing the men and taking the women and children. The parade video you mentioned. The beheading with a hoe video was also quite extreme.
And there was the video of a father carrying the tattered remains of his child, kinda wandering aimlessly. The airstrike footage also does me in too, just the idea of not knowing that you're about to blow up from something you can't even see.
I'd rather not have to scroll through the gore videos on telegram to find it again, sorry.