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this post was submitted on 03 Nov 2023
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Objectively not. Most of the decision makers for Hamas live comfortably in Quatar.
It's probably the multi-decades long commitment to genocide.
You think Israel has been planning this genocide for that long? Interesting take that I'd yet to hear.
Hum… like just see what the far-right Zionist militias in the 20-30s had to say, or what the first prime minister of Israel had to say. Or what they fucking did in 1948? A literal genocide, the Nakba. Like genocide has ALWAYS been their goal.
The state of Israel was founded as a colonial settler project. If you have never heard this before I'd be shocked to learn you're from anywhere but the US
Hamas has had genocide in its charter since it's establishment.
Saying they want Israel to stop existing is VERY different from calling for a genocide. And calling for “landback” is very far from genocide…
Oh they (Hamas leadership) explicitly have called for genocide separately too. In another place in this thread I linked an article where their spokesman said their goal was to continue to do more Oct 7 attacks until all the Jews were killed.
They never said “until all Jews” are killed.
Palestinians and Hamas can make the distinction between Jewish people and Israel.
Something Israel is incapable of doing. On purpose of course.
I'm going to ask what I've asked others who have made this "point" have you googled it.
Like this is a pretty basic, fundamental goal of Hamas. It's not even denied by them when asked.
Literally no evidence, just mainstream propaganda and manipulated quotes lmao. Like we really ought to believe articles that come out the Atlantic? Bro try harder.
Click the link. Hamas doesn't deny their desire to kill every Jewish person.
Their leadership when given the opportunity has consistently clarified that they indeed want genocide.
Can you clarify what they said then?
I can say confidently that I’ve seen plenty of Israeli leaders saying they clearly want to either kill or expel all Arabs and non-Jews from Israel.
I’ve never seen the same from Hamas leadership (and even less from other Palestinian groups - like Fatah and PFLP) that what they want is to either kill or expel all Jews from Palestine…
Have you looked?
This is from just three days ago :
And they've said similar shit my entire life.
Eliminating Israel == calling for a genocide.
Israel is an apartheid fascist state. It should be dismantled. And a new secular state with equal rights for all should be made in its place.
That is the position of most Palestinians. Some even wish for a two state solution, for some reason.
But saying Israel shouldn’t exist is not genocidal, anti-semitic or anything. It’s just fucking human.
Did you read the articles on it? Are you aware of what happened on Oct 7? Advocating for the repeated indiscriminate killing, raping and enslavement of civilians is calling for a genocide.
I don't think we have the same definitions of genocide if mass murder and rape isn't part of yours.
Rape and enslavement? Bro that is PURE propaganda juice.
And the Palestinians are saying “until we are free we will keep fighting”.
WHAT THE FUCK WOULD YOU EXPECT? A colonized people will keep fighting, forever.
On 10/7 they not only raped multiple women, but they paraded raped bodies through the streets of Gaza to cheers.
And they have hostages. Those hostages aren't being paid. They're being enslaved.
Gazans are free and have been since 2004.
There are zero colonies in Gaza. I'd expect this sort of violence out of the West Bank which is actively being colonized. But not the strip. The violence out of the strip largely justified the colonization efforts in the West Bank in the West and is the #1 reason the US doesn't push for an end to West Bank colonization.
Hostages don’t work..? Why would they be paid? They are just held for ransom. Are you dumb?
THE WHOLE OF ISRAEL IS A SETTLER COLONY BUILT ON TOP OF PALESTINE.
The Nakba destroyed the villages and cities of, and displaced over 70% of Palestinians to fund the state of Israel. The land Israel is built on is literally stolen from NATIVE Palestinians.
That is the definition of settler colonialism. A bunch of Europeans went to a land, murdered and forcibly expelled the natives to build an ethnostate.
Gaza is a concentration camp. The West Bank is a bantustan.
HOW CAN YOU DEFENT ISRAEL?????
Yes because they're currently being enslaved. Just because that makes Hamas look bad doesn't make it untrue.
Nakba happened in 1948. If it was 1960 we'd have an argument (there was a war in the 60s). But several generations of people have grown up with this reality now. And since then the state has absorbed millions of refugees from the rest of the Middle East and North Africa which expelled and displaced Jews from their societies. From Iran alone as an example, Israel accepted nearly 150,000 refugees forced out.
So ya Nakba was bad, but so was the Trail of Tears or Wounded Knee or any of the millions of atrocities humans have committed. Most societies are built on land stolen from Native populations. The atrocities of yesterday can't justify the atrocities of today because everyone has an atrocity they can point to.
Easy. They're not the ones conducting slave raids and parading raped women and girls through their streets to cheers. They didn't kill 40 children (beheading admittedly only some). They pushed for a return to the 1967 borders going so far as to evict all settlers from Gaza as a "prove it" deal for peace. They've shown a willingness to trade land for peace as evidenced by the Sinai deal, sending the peninsula back to Egypt.
And Gaza has proportionally received aid from the west (adjusted for inflation) at about 6x the Marshall Plan, which more than pays for the land stolen. The Gaza strip should be the Singapore of the Middle East but they've squandered the aid they've been given attempting to implement endless warfare.
It's an interesting question, because normally forcibly evicting an entire nationality would be genocide. But is it genocide if it's evicting the colonizers? What if it's been 50 years? A hundred?
I'm not sure one way or another, it's just interesting to think about.
Yes. To all of them yes.
Like if it was 1946, there's be no question that supporting the partition plan Britian was working on would be a bad idea.
But to call for the return of the land to Israeli would be the equivalent of calling for the return of the Dakotas to the Lakota in 1960/70s (during the AIM movement). Or calling for the eviction of all whites from Oklahoma in the 1970/80s.
That's about the same 70-80 year timeframe from "original sin" to today that we have going on in the West Bank.
That is indeed tricky.
But I don’t think WE can find the solution. Only the people who suffered the injustice of colonialism can say what is “enough justice”. Only they know what would help mend the wounds.
(Of course there are some extremist violent minorities in the resistance, but most Palestinians would agree they just want a land and freedom).
The original reason for a Jewish state, before it got corrupted by extremism, was to live in peace and be respected, instead of constantly persecuted and killed. That may have been true in the 1800s, but I'm not sure if it still is. It certainly doesn't seem like it's enough to really stop it. That original reason is also a bit ironic considering what most Palestinians want.
Perhaps the best solution would be to form a unified state with a secular government that fiercely protected the ethnicities living in the country. That I think would displace the fewest people.
No ethnostate can exist with peace. Jewish people are safer in the US than in Israel. And that was also true after WW2.
Creating a COLONIAL settler apartheid state where a bunch of people already lived? That is fucking dumb.
Typical British colonial thinking, I agree. The ethnostate made sense at the time it was first discussed. This was Russian revolution era, so the European states were each effectively ethnostates.
I mean that's not what they're talking about (they're just being a bigot), but this is just an escalation of the genocide that started in 1967.
I'm not sure that's what he meant. @mwguy could you clarify about Israels multi-decade long commitment to genocide? You're not a bigot either, right MW?
It's weird because I read that comment as saying hamas is motivated by its founding desire to eradicate Israel. Everyone else seems to be reading as Israel is motivated to destroy or takeover Palestine. Both are pretty genocidal atm tho. Poor civilians trapped in the middle.
Interesting. I guess we'll have to see what he says!
Tiny Pizza, Has has had a multi-decades long commitment to genocide. My whole life Hamas has been calling for the murder of every Jew on the planet consistently.
Really? How many did they kill?
As many as they've been able too. They went from stonings to gunfights to suicide bombers to rocket artillery to paraglider slave raids in my lifetime.
My whole life I've seen them dedicate more and more firepower to explicitly killing civilians
So ballpark?
~$1bn/yr worth of genocide.
I'm a tad deaf. That's how many people?
Oh no worries. I wrote it.
and the number that you wrote please?
$1bn/yr worth Tiny Pizza.
so none? Your saying the rockets have killed none?
No Mr. Personal Pan Pizza, I'm saying that theyake ~1bn/yr worth of attempted murder and it takes a multi-billion dollar consisten investment in state of the art anti-missle technology to keep those attempted murders from being real murders.
Now if you have tiny little crust and limited toppings options, you might be okay with the intent of an organizations activity to be genocide to the detriment of all of its other responsibilities.
But us more calzone minded folk have folds in our brain. And realize that the intent to do genocide is bad. And taking actions to commit genocide is bad. And furthermore the abandonment of their domestic duties and impoverishment of their own people to accomplish their goal of genocide is generally as indefensible as the purchase of a pizza that can't quench your hunger.
As many as they can get.
Which is?
If Hamas is based in Qatar why are they bombing hospitals and refugee camps in Gaza?
Hamas top leadership is in Quatar. They're insulated from the society they've created.
So the "wipe out hamas" operation is actually just a collective punishment for an organisation that they dont even think is based in Gaza. Glad you're willing to admit that
There's an estimated 40,000 strong Hamas army in the Gaza strip. That army has leaders and infrastructure on the ground in the Strip and was used to attack Israel on their big attack.
Eliminating the ability for that army to conduct operations is Israel's goal. Just because their (Hamas) top political and military leaders are based in Quatar doesn't mean Hamas isn't in the Gaza Strip.
So no, it's not an organization based outside of Gaza.