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this post was submitted on 06 Jul 2023
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Finally! Someone has to fight against US propaganda there.
Explain to me what's so great about you supporting Russia's propaganda in discrediting Zelenksy and Ukraines war efforts defending their own homes against warcriminals and aggressors?!
Someone has to counter the greatest propaganda machine in the world built and operated by the US to manage its global empire and many decades of bloodletting, massacres, tortures, slavery, environmental devastation, genocides, and its astronomical body count.
And yes, that same propaganda machine is the one that taught you everything you know about Zelensky and Ukraine, as they've been propagandizing the entire world about Ukraine since it was a part of the USSR. You are literally sitting in a century-long stream of American disinformation on the region. Which is why you think American newspapers crowing about "Russian disinformation" is worthy of anything other than ridicule and derision.
Russia is committing genocide and you think it's great?
I think the bloodletting is horrendous, and I think the US bears the overwhelming majority of the blame for it. In 2022 the US provided more lethal aid than Russia's entire annual military budget. In literally every conflict where the US sends weapons, the death toll skyrockets. Without lethal aid from the North Atlantic, this SMO would have been over very quickly and the bloodshed would have been far less.
The US is to blame for an invasion of a sovereign nation by Russia?
The US is to blame for so so so much in this conflict, but obviously not for Russia making the choice it made. National security is a relationship, not a state of being. A nation's national security is dependent on the national security of every other nation. It's a system. Russia attempted to work with NATO, even attempting to join it, because everyone knows that national security is an interrelational framework. The US refused to admin Russia. The US refused to do anything to advance Russian national security for decades. The US explicitly stated that Russian national security is not relevant. The US explicitly acted against Russian national security interest and explicitly refused to negotiate anything that had to do with Russian national security.
The US worked for decades to get Ukraine to join NATO, up to and including supporting a violent right wing coup, sending its war heroes and its statespersons to support every anti-Russian movement in Ukraine. It worked hand-in-hand with Ukrainian military forces to establish anti-Russian capabilities and pave the way for nuclear capabilities owned and operated by the US to be deployed against Russia on Ukrainian soil.
And the US knew this would trigger an attack for 30 years. Literally as far back as Clinton the US was in talks with Russia about how Ukraine must remain neutral for Russia to be nationally secure, and documents from that time show Clinton and his administration leaving those talks and immediately talking about how to get Ukraine to join the North Atlantic bloc and turn against Russia.
Ukraine is the physical territory through which Russia was brutally invaded twice, most recently by the Third Reich. It is not appropriate to look at Russia's decision to invade and limit your analysis to that one moment. The US has spent 30 years creating this conflict, deliberately, and it has cost the Ukranians their lives and their country. And then the US did exactly the one thing that would cause more Ukranian deaths once the conflict started - it fed them arms. Ukraine's is tiny compared to Russia. It has no chance to defeat Russia. Feeding arms into the conflict means the proxy continues to fight and continues to draw more fire and continues to die at larger and larger numbers. Literally every conflict the US has pumped arms into shows this result. Had the US simply stopped it's program as soon as Russia invaded, the Russian SMO would have succeeded much more quickly with far less damage. Instead, the US has shown us exactly what it's doing - it's building it's own military capabilities to fight China while attempting to weaken the Russian position by sacrificing Ukraine for it's strategic goals.
The US had 30 years to stop this. Russia made many attempts over the years to demonstrate that the US program needed to stop because national security is non-negotiable for every single nation on the planet. But the US chose death for the Ukrainians and continued it's program knowing full well that Russia would eventually be forced to react or be subjugated. That Russia reacted when it did was a matter of Russian strategy and military intelligence. That Russia reacted at all was the known outcome of US foreign policy in Ukraine for 30 years and every diplomat, politician, and military analyst knew it.
Why would Russia or anyone else care if someone joins NATO? Doesn't it only start to matter if you ambition to invade a NATO country? You make it sound like Russia's problem is that US makes it harder for them to invade foreign countries. Given Russia's history, that seems absolutely reasonable.
Why would anyone care? Are you serious? NATO is the world's only transnational nuclear military and it's completely unaccountable to any democratic institution and completely unaccountable to the world. It fucking dropped tons of depleted uranium on urban Yugoslavia for "humanitarian reasons", dooming generations of children to be stillborn or born with fatal defects and doomed entire generations to virulent and uncurable cancers. It deploys first strike nuclear capabilities in every country it occupies.
Look at it historically. The Third Reich started on the foundation of invading and subjugating Russia. It matched through Ukraine to get there. When the Third Reich fell, NATO was created by Russia's enemies and it was founded explicit to counter the USSR and it was staffed with leaders from Third Reich. When the USSR fell, NATO maintained and revealed itself to be foundationally against Russia this whole time. And it's been marching through Europe and is attempting to establish in Ukraine, except unlike the Third Reich, this time everyone is going along "willingly", of course with help from the CIA and State Dept.
It's quite literally Russia's existential threat.
Yes, NATO is a defence treaty. It only matter if you plan on attacking. NATO won't attack you (perhaps some NATO nations would, but not NATO as an organization).
I need evidence to believe that.
you mean, war-winning allies? The Treaty of Dunkirk was signed by France and the United Kingdom.
even if so, NATO's power against Russia extends only as far as to prevent Russia from attacking/annexing sovereign nations who requested themselves to join the organization. Easy-enough for Russia to ignore, isn't it? Unless Russia wants to invade sovereign nations, but that makes them the baddie, so this is a non-sequitur, right?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NATO_bombing_of_Yugoslavia - 7 instances of depleted uranium in that article alone.
No, it's not. It's a military alliance to produce an active duty transnational nuclear military without accountability to an electorate. This military alliance has been used aggressively and unprovoked multiple times, all to advance US strategic aims.
No, I mean enemies. Both historical and contemporary. Just because they were fighting the same enemy doesn't mean that they were real allies, as proven by the fact that as soon as the war ended, all of the North Atlantic aligned against the USSR, and most of them were totally cool with the Third Reich's plan to attack the USSR until they realized what it would cost them.
No, it does not. You clearly don't understand anything about nuclear strategy. NATO's primary strategic role is deploying nuclear first strike capabilities in Europe under a single coordinated strategic plan.
This is just swallowing propaganda whole. What you believe about NATO is what NATO propaganda says about itself. It's simply not true. This is the source of your confusion.
So, you were being hyperbolic. But I am with you on that, I do not condone the use of depleted uranium, by NATO or anyone (even though it is not banned).
I cannot find any NATO engagement that isn't instructed by a UN Security Council resolution or the application of Article 5 (attack on one member), which happened exactly once (following the 11 September attacks). NATO had no case for engaging in Irak and couldn't force its members to get involved, even with all the weight (and BS) of the USA pushing for it. I think you were a bit oversold the image of a bunch of friends with guns using the world as their range practice.
Can you explain to me what you find revolting here? Nuclear deterrence (mutually-assured destruction) has been a core doctrine of every nuclear-capable nation.
I must admit that I don't know everything, but you are not helping me find where my logic is flawed. The list of ex-soviet countries who joined NATO, the recent engagements in Chechnya, Tajikistan, Dagestan and Georgia, the "special military operation in Ukraine", should they not be making an unequivocal argument that Russian military expansionism is very real and that countries bordering Russia are seeking protection from Russia?
There's nothing inherently bad about propaganda. The problem with Russian propaganda is that it's trying to justify a brutal invasion that has killed hundreds of thousands of people, among them children buried in rubble by missile strikes. The US did the same after it's invasion of Iraq. It was wrong then and it's wrong now.
The US has been using propaganda to justify its atrocities, genocides, mass murders, environmental devastations, scores of violent coups, invasions, use of chemical and nuclear weapons against civilians, torture, enslavement, human trafficking, war profiteering, and massive body count for over a century. Far worse, for far longer, and far more deadly than anything Russia or the USSR has ever done.
You're right that propaganda is inherently neutral. When Euro-centric news outlets complain about Russian propaganda, it's completely and utterly without standing, as most of them are part of the US propaganda machine in big or small ways. These complaints are worthy of nothing but ridicule.
This argument is literally taken out of a" Russian propaganda for dummies' textbook.
Also what are you even saying: because USA did some bad in the past , though Russia has been doing very bad lately, Yet because it's not USA, Ruzzia is good? They have truly a fascist state man.
If you want to live in an illusion, enjoy, just be be mindful & respectful of the ones who have been suffering because of constant Russian shelling, killings and bombs. This isn't about USA, but you want to make it about them. Talking about being obsessed or something.
USA has never stopped doing some bad, ever. It is founded entirely on doing bad. It continues to do bad to this day. It is literally engaged in mass murder daily and lying about it. It's non fucking stop mass murder at the hands of USA globally and their propaganda system has poisoned nearly every single communication company you can name. Russian propaganda could never hold a candle to what the USA is doing every single day.
You say that Russia has a fascist state, yet ignore that Hitler, in Mein Kampf, literally said his vision was to replicate the US system in Europe and target the Slavs the way the USA actively oppressed the indigenous peoples in the Americas. What could literally be more fascist than the USA? It is literally the thing from which European fascism emerged and when European fascism was defeated, it was the USA (and the Vatican) that distributed Nazis into normal society, appointed them as generals of NATO, and brought them into positions of influence and power.
It was the US that developed and deployed nuclear and chemical weapons and committed the first generational mass murders in the world, literally dooming millions of future children to violent deaths from the poisons they deployed.
When NATO bombed Yugoslavia citing "humanitarian aid", they dropped thousands of tons of depleted uranium on urban populations, and the region has the highest rates of fatal cancers, childhood cancers, and violent birth defects. The US literally murders and tortures children before they are born.
The idea that a proxy war between USA and Russia isn't about USA is ridiculous. If you want to live in an illusion, enjoy, but be mindful and respectful of the people in South America who have been tortured, mass murdered, completely displaced and who have been under cultural genocide and complete environmental devastation from the US via direct and indirect military action, training and arming death squads, funding and supporting fascist coups, and dumping millions of tons of toxic waste, and dooming millions to deaths of poverty and neglect through deliberate political action - all of it covered entirely by USA propaganda.
Forgive me if I think it's disgusting when Eurocentric news outlets cry about Russian propaganda. They all deserve to be completely dismantled, and they will be eventually.
If you want to cry at USA for something they did, do it. But we are crying in Europe for what Ruzzia is doing right now in Europe.
And, the whole of EU supports Ukraine. As they are our good neighbours. So why the fuck would you someone talking about power abuses, have no respect for Ukrainians which are literally seeing whole cities destroyed on a daily basis.
I'd expect considering your tales, that you have at least would've some empathy for the victims of power abuse. Bur, no, it's all about your opinion. Me myself and I . Just wonder what your mentor Lenin would say that to that.
Ruzzia 💀 here have some reddit gold too while we're at it with redditisms
You are crying for Ukraine which is dying because the US is using it as a proxy in a war against Russia. This is the violence done to all proxies in all proxy wars. The proxies are trapped between the bigger powers. It is very sad what is happening to Ukraine. Russia and US are at war but the battlefield is Ukraine and 99% of US personnel are Ukrainian and 100% of US collateral damage are Ukrainian. Just like every conflict the US adds weapons to, it only gets more bloody and more hopeless. The US created this conflict, it created the battlefield, it created the training and the munitions, it refuses to allow negotiations, it has a strategic goal of harming Russia. It literally says it almost every month through its various mouth pieces.
We all cry for Ukraine, but some of us know where the real blame lies.
What are you waffling about? Did the US force Russia to invade Ukraine? If course not, the Russians invaded, Ukraine asked for aid to defend themselves and Europe/the US are providing the aid because it's the right thing to do.
Unless you've brought into the US libertarians nonsense that we should be encouraging peace, but have no idea of how that would work as this way is only going to end with the Russians leaving or the Ukrainians surrendering land which they won't do.
You don't know what waffling means.
Strawman
Completely naive understanding of the world.
Ad hominem
I am
Ukrainians will surrender land as soon as the North Atlantic stops feeding them weapons. And the sooner that happens, the fewer Ukrainians will die and the less additional damage the country will incur.
I just realised you're from the Tankie instance and everyone of your comments on this site shows hatred for the west in general so I'm going to leave you to your sixth form politics and call it a day.
LOL, using "tankie" and then accusing me of grade school understanding is fucking hilarious
I said "sixth form" as in sixth form college student who's just learned about political theory and thinks communism could work "if we just do it properly this time".
I'm not saying left wing politics are bad, I'm fairly socialist myself, but once you've got to the point you're defending a country invading another just because you hate the west so much you've gone too far mate.
I don't think you have any grasp of the political situation if you think your strawman represents a position anyone of reasonable political understanding holds.
The fact that you think the predominant position of "tankies" is that communism just needs to be done "right" is also evidence that your self-assessment of being "fairly socialist" is completely detached from reality. You're still fighting through Western propaganda.
The reality of the situation is war is going to happen, whether the US starts it or someone else starts it. Who starts it doesn't actually matter, what matters is the entire structure of politics around the war. I don't like war, it's terrible, but certain conditions make it necessary, and the US is far and away the architect of these conditions. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is no exception. This was a structure put in place by the US. That Russia crossed the imaginary border and made the declaration of escalation in Feb 2022 does not mean Russia holds special moral standing in this conflict. Russia assessed the same system flows that the US assessed and decided now was the time to escalate the conflict, but the conflict has been hot since 2014 and the US has been there stoking that fire since well before the bullets started flying.
If you think crossing the border and declaring the escalation holds moral standing but the entire 30 year program of the US to create these conditions does not, you might just be a standard run of the mill liberal without a hint of being "fairly socialist".
Fight it with russian propaganda? Do you realise that it's WAY worse?
Literally nothing in the last 500 years is worse than the North Atlantic campaign of global genocide, racial capitalism, settler colonialism, environmental devastation, psychological warfare, mass murder, sexual violence, and utter subjugation of 80% of the planet. The US is the pinnacle of that subjugation and violence. Russia cannot hold a candle to the US's global violence. No, it is impossible for Russian propaganda to be worse in any way.
Hoooly fucking shit, the brainwashing.
Said the russophobe who literally went to school with ideological indoctrination to the person who also went through the same indoctrination and disagrees with them despite never having gone through Russian indoctrination programs.
I mean, in some sense you're correct, you just don't understand what brainwashing is. It's not breaking someone's mind with lies, which is what your indoctrination tells you it is. Brainwashing was a term coined to describe the process of removing indoctrination, literally washing the brain. You believe what you have believed since childhood because you were indoctrinated into those beliefs and have not washed your brain yet. I am brainwashed, because I went through similar enough schooling that you did but I have changed my beliefs through a difficult and emotional process of challenging my beliefs and discovering which ones were placed there by indoctrination. I washed my brain, and I am sure that I am not yet done with all of the false beliefs placed in me by my upbringing but I am working on it.