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Trump Backs Israel Bombarding Gaza: 'Gotta Finish the Problem'
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this post was submitted on 05 Mar 2024
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The problem is religion.
Religion is the exuse.. It's neither the reason nor the problem.
Excuses are what enables something to happen even when the right solution is different.
I am not sure about your point. I think that we agree on this, but it sounds like you are making a counter argument.
If religion was the reason, then this genocide would happen everywhere and all the time.
You could argue that it does or at least did. But in this case and in most modern day cases. the true motives are not religion and genocides would have happened even if there was no religion. In the Israel Vs Hamas, the conflict is not religion. It is the right to exist Vs the right to land. Some may have used religion as a historic backdrop, but this has nothing to do with religion.
When Hamas members say that they want to genocide all the Jews they are saying it's a religious thing. And they have been saying that for all my conscious life. Meanwhile Israel is motivated by religion to insure their God given territory is kept safe and are willing to genocide any group that threatens them. Both parties are motivated to use religion as an excuse for genocide. This is, at its very core a religious conflict.
Then we agree. They use religion as the excuse. But the true reason is territory and power. No one is fighting for their religion to be spread.
Israel want control of the territories. Palestine wants it's own state after Israel was given their territory.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/whats-israel-palestinian-conflict-about-how-did-it-start-2024-01-14/
If you think we agreed then you're such a motivated thinker that you motivated yourself out of reading comprehension. Religion is an excuse for a lot of things in this world. But in this case it is the reason, not the excuse.
You are right. We do not agree
Not true. Basically, they want an end to the apartheid.
Is is a complicated history but even the Hamas founding charter, which is certainly unreasonable in its fundamentalism with Sharia Law and is antisemitic, does not call for the extermination of all Jewish People. That's a lie, and also intentionally ignores the 2017 Revised charter. Check Article 7 and 13 of the 1988 Charter to see yourself, compare it to Article 20 and 24-26 in the revised version too. Hamas has committed atrocious acts, there's no need to make things up about Hamas to show they've done terrible things. Ending the occupation and having a Palestinian election for the Palestinian people to choose their own leadership is the way to diminish support for Hamas and other Armed resistance groups. Further terrorizing the West Bank and Gaza will only increase their support, which has been shown historically not only within the Occupied Palestinian Territories but throughout history.
Hamas founding charter and Revised charter 2017
History of Hamas supported by Netanyahu since 2012
Gaza Blockade is still Occupation
Dahiya Doctrine
Gaza March for Return Protest
Apartheid
AWRAD Gaza War Poll
PCPSR Public Opinion Poll Dec 2023
How many quotes from Hamas leaders saying they want to kill every jew would I need to supply before I could even get you to entertain that your position may not be correct?
Have Hamas leaders said antisemitic comments? Certainly, I'm sure some are genuinely antisemitic on top of being anti-zionist. That and their targeting of civilians has been a major reason for their lack of support by Palestinians historically.
Does that change the reality of the permanent occupation, or the apartheid laws, or the settler colonialism? No. Palestinians deserve basic human and civil rights. They deserve free and fair elections. How do you propose the conflict be resolved?
Also, you didn't answer my question.
I want to be clear on my position so that you don't argue against something else: I'm not arguing that Israel is in any way justified for their actions of apartheid or their retaliation.
I'm arguing Hamas isn't going to be happy if the apartheid ends. They want not just the state of Israel destroyed but all Jews dead. Not a few members here or there but the super majority. Claiming that this is just about apartheid is pretending that there isn't a genocidal goal. That predates the apartheid. It's what caused Israel to start the apartheid in the first place. It's a feedback loop. The tighter they squeeze the more martyrs they make. The less the squeeze the more they risk being genocided. It's a no win situation. Until one side kills the other, per each's own view of manifest destiny, this will not end.
The culmination of the apartheid is the expulsion of Palestinians from 1947, the martial law and military rule on the Palestinians within Israel proper since 1948, the decision to occupy and settle the west bank and Gaza strip in 1967, and the development of military control and maintenance of the apartheid in the Occupied Palestinian Territories to this day. Hamas emerged in 1988 from the first Intifada, after 21 years of Israeli Occupation. If there was no occupation, there wouldn't be any resistance to occupation.
What do you mean it predates the apartheid? That's a revisionist history of the founding of Israel. Perhaps you're referencing the Azzam Pasha misquote (Haaretz on misquote) or the slogan From the river to the sea which is no call for genocide. Plus, there were no military plans by the Arab Legion either for genocide. In fact, Ben-Gurion and King Abdullah colluded to partition Palestinian territory. Maybe you mean The Grand Mufti and Nazi Propaganda Time, Haaretz, WaPo, yet he had quickly dwindling support after his expulsion and visit to Nazi Germany. After all, 12,000 Palestinians fought against Nazi Germany in WWII: Haaretz, JPost, a magnitude more than his Personal Holy War Army.
On the other hand, The Concept of Transfer goes back to 1882 by Zionist Leaders. As during the British Mandate, Forced Displacement by the unofficial Transfer Committee and the JNF led to 100,000 displaced Palestinians. Which continue today 972mag, MEE, Haaretz. Leading to the development of Plan Dalet which included hundreds of (Declassified) Massacres. (Details of Plan C (May 1946) and Plan D (March 1948) )
While Ben-Gurion was advocating for partition to acquire as much palestinian land as possible, the Palestinian leadership repeatedly argued to a unitary binational state.
This rhetoric that the ethnic cleansing of Palestine and apartheid are the fault of Palestinians out of self defense is a deliberate tactic to dehumanize Palestinians and justify the collective punishment and ongoing enthnic cleansing. Whether you know it or not.
Palestinian Arab Congress advocating for Unified State 1928
Peel Commission Report and Memorandum of the Arab Higher Committee advocating for Unified State 1937
History of peace process
10 Myths of Israel
Palestine and Israel: Mapping an annexation
If your intent is to give me hours worth of reading by link spamming then I have some bad news for you. I'm not reading all that.
Have you listened to season one of the Martyr Made Podcast? It does a pretty decent job of covering the early 20th century reinvention of Israel long before the 40s. And the baby steps of the apartheid in the later half of that century. Anyway, you keep avoiding my question so I'm going to assume you aren't arguing in good faith. You have just one side you are willing to discuss and anything on the intent of the other side is something you dodge. You aren't having a conversation. You are pushing an agenda. And I just don't have time for that.
If you click the history link you'll see even more sources about both sides of the conflict. You can look at any of the sources to learn more. If you want a genuine history of the conflict, I suggest you look at the works by new Historians Ilan Pappe, Rashid Khalidi, or Avi Shlaim. Why would I listen to a podcast over the works of actual Historians on the subject.
Genocide is neither the historical goal, the official goal, the stated goal of the Oct 7th attack, or within the means of Hamas. It's a bad question. And it ignores the will of Palestinians too, which you can see from the polls I also linked.
You spent all that time compiling all those resources and you expect me to believe that you wouldn't be interested? That's straining credibility.
Try listening to the first 7 minutes of the first episode. A person would have to be defective to not be instantly interested in more.
https://www.martyrmade.com/podcast-parts/1-fear-and-loathing-in-the-new-jerusalem
I looked at the episode synopsis list. I can't tell who's making the podcasts or their credibility. From the look of it doesn't seem as in-depth as I would expect, I don't see a mention of settler Colonialism. Maybe it's a good place to start. But if that's where you learned (falsely) that Palestinians have been wanting genocide, while also leaving out all the other events I referenced; sorry but I don't consider it a good source compared to actual Historians that have exhaustively researched all this. Personally, I recommend the work of Ilan Pappe. He uses Israeli sources, Arab sources, official Israeli documentation, and oral history to show a very comprehensive and detailed history of the conflict. The book A History of Two Peoples has a lot of information since the early Zionists settlements in the 1920s. He also has multiple books on audible if you'd prefer to listen than read.
You failed to understand the assignment.
Well if you're interested in learning more, you have plenty of places to start
And, apparently, if you don't want to learn more you have plenty of excuses. You'd love the opening because it fully supports your view but instead of exploring a few minutes of audio you decided to do research to confirm that you don't know anything about it and dismissed it without even trying it.
Problem is colonialism lol
Erosion of ethics on the use of force rather.
For just a few decades there was an illusion of "the West" having some success in making those ethics the baseline.
What ethic since 1920 its 100% colonialism Israël is younger as a country than my grand father wtf. You dont immigrate thousand of people and steal territory by ethic.
Repatriation is the term. Jews do, after all, originate from Judea and Samaria. I hope you are not going to argue with that.
Modern state of Israel is younger, but there were Jewish states there in antique times destroyed by force. I hope you are not going to argue with that either.
These things said, that's not quite the approach Israeli elites themselves take - they are exactly colonialist and proud of that, so probably that state should be cut down to something like "initial Zionist settlements plus Eilat with land connecting them and some farmland", that'd still be quite viable as a state due to sea and technological development.
No with this logic anyone that had ancester at some point somewhere can 'repatriate' there but that's not how it works in international law.
That's exactly how it works in right, and "international law" you can stick into some overused orifice of your body.
Yeah let's see how everyone love Israël and respect them. I'm sure all their child will love to live with this just look at Germany
This is now about Jews, not Israel. Jews do have the right to repatriate.
Just like I have the right to repatriate to Western Armenia, and my grandchildren if there'll be any will have that right, and their grandchildren.
I am a lifelong atheist and disagree with this. Religion isn't the problem, bad people are. Religion is a vehicle for bad people to harm those who are vulnerable.