351
Missouri man fatally shoots his mother at home after mistaking her for intruder
(www.theguardian.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 10 Mar 2024
351 points (98.3% liked)
News
23669 readers
4410 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
An armed society is a society where people are looking for someone to shoot.
From across the pond, it seems wild how bad it spiralled out due to capitalism. You guys got sold on the idea of having to defend your own house at any point of time... Leads people to have fantasies of being in such a scenario to use their custom piece to end a fool!
Are we really surprised it ended this way?
"You guys"
I'm armed. Not seeking any victims. Have a nice day.
Be honest. You've had dreams/thoughts of killing someone in self defence.
Honestly no. I have better things to dream about. I have lived in the ghetto, and fallen asleep to the sound of gunshots and sirens. I have a wife who I love, and I want to make sure she doesn't come to any harm. I'm sad for you that you think guns are only weapons for mass murders. Maybe someday you'll realize self-defense is a valid reason to own guns. Be honest, could you live with yourself if your home gets broken into and your spouse or child gets killed and you stood there looking around doing nothing because you weren't armed?
I doubt you're being honest in your question but I'll answer it anyway.
Could I live with myself if my wife died due to a home invasion? Yes, of course I could. I'm not at fault for her death so why wouldn't I be able to live with myself?
The fact that you came up with a situation where you think violence is the solution answers my initial question of you dreaming about killing someone in self-defense. You didn't think you were going to prove yourself a liar in your response did you?
You obviously made up your mind before ever posting or reading my response so there's no point in continuing this conversation. Dreaming of something and preparing for the worst are obviously different but my words are wasted on you.
Great point, I've reconsidered my entire worldview thanks to your clown emojis. You're really doing God's work here.
Took you long enough to reply. Talk about being slow.
Of course, being mentally prepared to do what one has to in the case of preventing loss of life or great bodily injury, the only things armed self defense can legally be used for, isn't exactly the same thing as pulling a Berkowitz. Most people who own them are prepared to, but hopeful they'll never have to, use it, and mischaracterizing them as insane nutjobs is unlikely to win any favor in debate. Don't get me wrong those people do exist, but conflating them with normal gun owners is a mistake, and one you're free to make.
While most gun owners are not insane nut jobs, the actual problem people are trying to point out is that everyone acts in poor judgement or overwhelming emotion sometimes. I might swear loudly at myself; someone having a loaded gun handy might end someone’s life. There’s a difference.
The other issue that people don’t talk enough about is the inherent conflict between keeping a deadly weapon secured and keeping one ready for defense.
I think the world might be better if we stopped pretending we're all exactly the same.
Thankfully, you must be wrong, or with 600,000,000+ guns for 300,000,000+ people we'd all already be dead.
But it’s not as simple as whether we’re all the same. Owning a deadly weapon means that anything going wrong potentially kills someone. Most of the time they didn’t deserve it.
You’re afraid of a threat that magnified by your fears and misperceptions. I’m afraid of your “self-defense” or your lack of securing your weapon.
Be different all you want, but it’s a problem when it kills innocent people. Where are their rights?
"Most of the time they didn't deserve it" eh?
Well, all gun deaths per year including accidents, murder, and suicide, hover around 60,000/yr.
However, even by our most conservative estimate, conservative in this case meaning only using verifiable police reports and completely discounting the most common type of armed defense: defensive display, Harvard has estimated "the good guy with a gun" being effective 100,000 x/yr.
Clearly we can see that 100,000 defensive gun uses is 40,000 more than 60,000. This indicates quite clearly that actually "most" of the time it is deserved, as "most" of the time by 40,000 it is self defense.
I really hate that I have to say this, but literally no u.
Well don't attempt to kill me or someone I care about in my presence, simple as. Think you can handle that? Should be pretty damn easy tbh.
Well don't make people leave them in the car to come into your store, the only time mine are less secure than I'd like are when the law requires it to be.
If a man is stabbed in the park do you feel guilty for having knives in the kitchen? Unless I'm the one who does the bad thing I will not feel responsible for it, I am not responsible for the actions of another sentient being.
They have them. Just because rape exists, do you think a woman has no right to her body? Similarly, just because murder exists, that doesn't mean the murderer wasn't trampling the murdered's rights, actually that's literally the exact reason murder is called "a crime." And the reason legal self defense is a thing, too, your right to self defense is to secure your right to life, specifically.
Not deserved, killed. You’re claiming that most of the time a gun is used someone is killed
Well, are we counting self defense (including injury but not death & death) to mean "killed" here? Because I'm claiming that most of the time a gun is used on another person* it is self defense, as per the numbers. And if someone is killed in self defense because they were threatening to kill the defender, yeah, kinda deserved it. Sucks it had to be that way and all, and deadly force is always a last resort, everyone prefers a peaceful outcome, but don't threaten to kill people, ya know?
*Actually most times a gun is used (well military probably, but other than that) it's at a shooting range to shoot paper, followed by hunting, USPSA, IDPA, Cowboy Action, Skeet (lol), Trap, sporting clays, etc. What's more I'll argue guns carried or staged for defense are "used" for such even if they never leave the holster. It is "in service" so to speak at those times, that is using it.
Yep, easy. I’ll try not to turn around in your driveway or knock on the door or live in range of stray bullets or be anywhere near whatever random kid finds your gun or in sight when you’re in a bad mood, or near anyone who steals it or whoever they sell it to, or in the same town when you’re nervous enough to decide that’s a good choice, or in the same park if you commit suicide m, or know any family or friend you might get pissed at or drink in front of, or near any store or government agency you thought gave you a bad deal, or anywhere in nature you think that rustling bush means a bear, or in any neighborhood where people make you nervous for any reason, etc
That guy got charged and convicted.
People get cinvicted for that all the time, despite Joe Biden's suggestion, that is illegal.
People get convicted of negligent homicide if they shoot a bystander (well if they die, ykwim, if not they're charged with something also bad)
Why are there kids in my house or pants? I do not consent to this.
or in sight when you’re in a bad mood,
Does "in a bad mood" mean "you're literally actively attempting to kill me?" No? Didn't think so.
Well yeah criminals are criminals, I wouldn't hang out with a gun theif either, first smart thing you've said.
Yeah criminals who buy stolen guns are also bad, good move
The fuck I look like I have the Killdozer in my pants? Jeez were you the guy who called me scared earlier? I'm not gonna check but if not he should get a load of you.
Why would I do that? There's better places, not to speak of the fact that I'm not suicidal. You projecting or something? 1-800-273-8255.
Does any of this sound like "attempts to kill you" to you, really? C'mon man you ok?
Also a crime, and you can't even carry in government buildings.
What the fuck are you doing spying on me through the bushes, anyway? I'll be honest I might have it at low ready for that, but you'd only get maced when I figured out you're just some pervert not a cougar (black bears around here, they keep to themselves, it's the mountain lions what get ya.)
When did they put "nervous neighborhoods" on the list of "death or great bodily injury?" I'm not seeing that on the list.
You should probably consult a lawyer and learn a bit about use of force laws before you talk about them, you don't really seem educated on the subject.
I wouldn't dare assume what's in someone's head and I try hard not to mischaracterize anyone. I just wanted to know if that person ever dreamed of killing someone, and while my comment didn't provide context, I was wondering how happy they'd be if they did. I get the impression that some people that want guns for self-defense are 'itching' to kill someone and are using self-defense as an excuse. I read that a girl got shot because her basketball landed in someone's yard and the person killed her. While not the norm, without proper healthcare, including mental health, having the right to use a gun for self-defense is a recipe for disaster. Plus, the 'stand your ground' laws seemed deeply flawed, though this is coming from a Canadian that doesn't have the right to use deadly force to defend my property.
These two statements are conflicting.
You could have asked them, but you instead told them how they feel.
As I mentioned, those people do exist, but they aren't the norm and conflating them with just a normal dude who doesn't want to use it but will if forced won't make you friends with those normal people.
Which isn't legal. Maybe in Texas idk about them, but in most of the country that'll buy you some prison time unless it landed in your living room and she kicked your door in to get it back.
For you maybe. I'm fine, and for all I know so is that other person you first replied to. Not that those things wouldn't be cool, but the need for them does not invalidate the need to defend oneself. In fact, the fact that we don't have those may well contribute to why we do sometimes need to defend ourselves, tbh. In the meantime the best you can do is evaluate that for yourself, if you can be safe and use it only when you have to, great. If you doubt your ability, making the decision to not have one is a good one and I couldn't fault you.
Neither do Americans with SYG nor Castle Doctrine. Castle Doctrine says you have no "duty to retreat" in your home or vehicle, meaning if someone breaks in while you're inside, you do not have to run away before responding to the threat. Stand Your Ground extends this to any place you are legally occupying. That said you still have to abide by all other laws at the time, including but not limited to "deadly force is only legal to use in defense or prevention of death or great bodily injury." Not "property."
If you really weren't seeking any victims, you wouldn't be armed.
Great argument. Perhaps you'd like to tell me my favorite color next? Or which religion I should follow?