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Dutch woman, 29, granted euthanasia approval on grounds of mental suffering
(www.theguardian.com)
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this post was submitted on 16 May 2024
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You're the person who would force a baby to be born and live a life of pain, suffering, and burden on those around them instead of abortion. You're not saving a life, you're destroying them.
Answer me this, why? Why are you against it?
This is more of an anti-natalist position than a pro-choice one. The right to bodily autonomy includes the right to reproduce, even if you think the parents are too poor. The two situations aren't comparable because one involves a person making a decision about a fetus, and the other involves the life of a full-fledged human being.
It also includes the right to end your own life. Are you against bodily autonomy?
If someone walks into a hospital and says they want to inject bleach into their veins to cure COVID, is that still covered under bodily autonomy?
She didn't want to cure Covid in a hospital, she wanted to end her suffering by ending her life in a dignified way.
So are you against bodily autonomy?
You didn't answer the question. Are you against bodily autonomy?
Well you didn't answer the question first :)
That's because it's unreasonable and made in bad faith.
I don't support any right as an absolute principle. Rights have to be balanced against each other with consideration of the material effects. What you're doing is applying a principle designed to cover one type of situation to a situation that is only superficially similar. A reductive tactic to avoid engaging with the complexity of the issue.
Lots of words to say "no" lmao
Not beating the bad faith allegations lmao
If it's such a simple issue, why couldn't you answer my question ๐ค could it be that you don't support bodily autonomy as an absolute principle either ๐ค๐ค๐ค๐ค๐ค๐ค
I do, %100. So now what?
Lol and yours isn't in bad faith. Comparing an informed decision to end their life against someone wanting to inject bleach because they think it will help them when it would kill them. One is misinformed, the other is not.
It's not a comparison at all. People on here really don't seem to understand how hypotheticals work.
What I'm doing with that is merely establishing that the right to bodily autonomy is, like all rights, not absolute. There are cases where it has to be balanced against other rights or material considerations. At no point did I claim that it was analogous to assisted suicide. There is nothing remotely bad faith about establishing that point.
You brought up a random hypothetical that's not meant to be analogous but you used it in your argument.... You asked if it was body autonomy to want to inject bleech, ignoring the nuance of being informed or not. It was a bad faith example, and you continued to ignore nuance to force an answer you wanted.
Your hypothetical is about someone making an uninformed decision that could kill them. This story is about a person making an informed one. Yes, if someone wants to do something that could harm them, without turn realizing, we should educate them. But if the person is informed and wants to take their life, that's their right. And if a person wants to inject bleach, knowing full well what it will do, then that's their right, it's their life. Trying to parent every adult in the world is silly and insulting.
So you don't support bodily autonomy as an absolute principle. Or else you don't understand what the word "absolute" means.
I mean you can tell me what I support and what I don't understand all you want. I %100 agree with full body autonomy. I have a hunch you just see too black and white to understand the nuance I tried to highlight.
I'm the one trying to highlight nuance, you're the one trying to insist everything's black and white.
Yes, the "No you are." I'm in favor of %100 body autonomy, what nuance am I missing?
100% absolute body autonomy would mean consent doesn't have to be informed. That's the meaning of the word "absolute."
I agree, it doesn't have to be. But if you want assistance, that assistance can inform you before assisting. You can inject bleach at home, but a doctor doesn't have to do it for you. Your autonomy does not obligate others to act and it doesn't prevent them from giving you information.
So yeah, I'm %100 for it still. How exactly do I not understand?
Ok great, then people can commit suicide at home but that doesn't compel anyone to act to assist them. Looks like my stance is fully consistent with bodily autonomy and your objection is meaningless.
My objection, my objection to what? I think you're maybe taking the who "roleplay your username" a bit far. You don't even know what you're arguing at this point. You brought up a person wanting to get injected with bleach randomly like some gotcha when everyone here is in favor of autonomy. I agree people should be able to do it at home. Others shouldn't be compelled to help but they should be allowed to help if they want to. What exactly did I object against?
Your objection to my position, which is that you claim it's contrary to bodily autonomy.
Of course I'm against taking bodily autonomy as an absolute principle, because no rights are absolute. However, the way you've defined it, "absolute bodily autonomy" still allows you to be barred from doing something if a doctor decides you're not informed enough, or if it would mean compelling someone to assist you. That isn't what absolute means to me, but I'm willing to accept your definition. But by that definition, opposition to assisted suicide is comparable with "absolute bodily autonomy." So your claim that I don't support bodily autonomy is baseless.
I don't see what the confusion is. If absolute bodily autonomy can't compel people to act, then assisted suicide, which by definition involves another person's assistance, isn't covered by bodily autonomy.
Nobody is forcing anyone to abort a pregnancy? Those are simply options for parents to take if they want to.
So is this option to die with dignity when life is suffering.
Where is your attorney badge, for you clearly missed your appointment.
People have the right to have children, regardless of if the circumstances they'll be brought up in are up to your approval. To say they shouldn't have that right is not pro-choice, it's anti-natalist.
Yes and who denies them having children?
No one. Irrelevant.
But you were literally pointing that out? Or would you say that your entire point is irrelevant and should be dismissed?
No one is presently stopping people from having kids, but that doesn't mean that anti-natalism doesn't exist.
Mhm...
Looks OP antinatalism
Yup I sure do exist. But that doesn't mean I would enforce others to not have kids.
Well, there you have it. Your position is wrong and awful, and I'm opposed to it and have no problem saying so. That's that.
My position is awful because I decided for myself that I don't want kids? The fuck is wrong with you Mr Moral Apostle?
That's not what anti-natalism is.
Okay then I assumed wrong, my bad.