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Why are flights cheaper than trains in Europe?
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this post was submitted on 10 Aug 2023
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No VAT or fuel tax is madness
I knew about the lack of a kerosene tax for flights but no VAT on international flights is just downright nuts to me.
Bread, Tampons, and books are more highly taxed than (most international) flights. Talk about distorted markets.
Why is this still a thing... this should be the top issue on all political agendas
Now I don't agree with it (in fact, I am strongly opposed to the tax exemption), but the reasoning is that this way you create an 'even playing field' for aviators all across the globe. In other words: it's doesn't become more attractive to tank in Arab Gulf states, making their airlines out-compete European airlines.
That's always the excuse they make. But it's highly flawed. You can tax the planes that land in your country. They can't evade landing in your country, and they don't get to decide where people want to go.
Either they are complete hypocrites or they are the most useless idiots when it comes to finding solutions.
I would add a third option there: the aviation lobby is too strong, sufficiently suppressing the urge to find solutions. ;)
I think the issue is solvable for continental flights, but it becomes really difficult for international flights. At least not unless you get others to also support it, for which many sadly wont have any incentive.
Want to tax the whole distance rather than just the portion flown within the airspace you control (which will be minimized as much as possible)? Airlines will split up long distance flights by utilizing airport hubs just outside your jurisdiction. Giving those a major advantage and moving a substantial business away.
Combat this by taxing on an airline level? Airlines will just split into two entities, one serving europe and the other the rest of the world. Again leading to a loss for your economy. And at least for long international distances there is no alternative to flying.
Sweden just taxes you upon landing. Sure some airlines left and some only fly short connect flights. But those are not easy fixes especially if all of EU was doing this.
I've heard this reason being mentioned, but I'm not really convinced by it. If this is of concern, you can tax the combustion of fuel on flights going in or out of the country, instead of taxing the sale of the fuel.
You mean a CO^2 ^tax? Yes please!
But this could be said about every industry, right? Oh, if we would be not be taxed, we would be more competitive worldwide.
Indeed, but aviation is slightly more mobile than say steel production. It's a bad excuse nonetheless, if you ask me!
It's really not. It's the most immobile industry there is. They literally have to land in the places where people want to go to, they can't just produce their "goods" anywhere and ship them.
It's not like the plane has much of an option where to tank. Planes don't tank more than needed for any flight. I struggle to comprehend this point
Well I definitely see Ryanair making detours to, say, Algiers to tank cheaply.
That is just an objectivly wrong statement.
Fueling doesn't happend instandly and the whole process (inluding new fuel calculations, calling the Fuel-Crew, driving up and attaching/detatching the tanker, signing off paperwork, etc) can take up to an hour, without a single drop of fuel being filled into the tanks.
Planes often fly multiple short hops, well below they maximum possible range (e.g. between the Hawaiian Islands). If the pilots calculate, that they can stay below there landing weight, then they might opt to take fuel for multiple flights. Burning a few hundred kilos more fuel costs less than having a full crew twiddling there thumbs & letting ground personal run around for an hour.
Introduce tariffs on kerosene remaining in landing planes and used during the flight. Problem solved.
I wouldn't say madness. But it is certainly very unfair to the rail industry. They should both be exempt or neither.
I know a lot of people are big fans of trains, but I'm not taking a train from Madrid to Copenhagen for business. It's not gonna happen. Madrid->Paris maybe. They're opening a new line that'll cover the distance in 5 hours.
But within countries trains are absolutely the way to go. At least here in Spain Even if you are on the train longer than the plane, there is no security-state bullshit to deal with at the stations and the experience is much nicer.
And you don’t have to show up to the train station that long before your scheduled departure compared to flights. Train stations are also centrally located for most people compared to airports. My thinking has been that if it’s around 5-7 hrs by train, the flight will be faster but the time you spend waiting for the flight makes the time you spend pretty much equal out.
I agree! The time it takes to go from my home to the airport, then going through check in, security check, etc, is around the same as just doing the whole thing by train. And I can take a longer nap on the train, always a plus.
Cries in German's Deutsche Bahn.
I take the long distance train a lot, over 20 times a year a lot. These are informed tears.
Alright from where to where is this train you so frequently take?
Lol Im on a train in Germany rn. Its packed full and delayed 20 minutes. Thats nothing new here. Its more common to have delays and why to packed trains here
Oh, excuse me. I thought you were being sarcastic! I apologize. I'm oo used to online political fights. 😅
Yeah, the Deutsche Bahn was half privatized and because they had to chase profits, the Deutsche Bahn AG started investing in DB Schenker (a logistics outfit) along with many-a foreign companies, instead of maintaining and building more railways, as well as buying new wagons.
Now we have the fucked up situation where the Deutsche Bahn manages the railway, so other train companies (Thalys, Flixtrain, TGV, etc) have to rent the (publically financed) rails, while being treated like stepchildren in such situations when a Deutsche Bahn trains (that are not well maintained) needs a platform for longer than planned because of some emergency (but there's an emergency every day). And it's not like these trains could use other routes, because the routes aren't maintained. The Deutsche Bahn is practically a monopoly as a company, while enjoying state funding. The last slap in the face was when the Swiss state train company (SBB) bans German trains from entering Switzerland, because they always cause delays on the Swiss side. Trivia: a train counts as late after a 3-minute delay in Switzerland, 6-minute in Germany. SO HOW EMBARASSING IS THIS?? The Swiss told us that we're too friggin unpünktlicht!!
The Deutsche Bahn now (with some political pressure, but not too much) announced they're going to build more routes and buy more trains, and all in all, WE WILL FINALLY BE ON TIME... in 2070. 2070!!!! I'm not going to still be working in 2070!
This turned into a rant, sorry. TL;DR, the Deutsche Bahn is in a sad, sad state.
Yes. No one else can really compete with DB on German rail because DB discriminates. This is extremely embarrassing considering that many other EU countries like Italy, France, and Spain does not have this problem. DB Netz need to be properly split from DB. The current situation is super shit.
Hahaha. Don't worry I appreciate it. That is very funny about Switzerland!
Here in Spain they are finally opening high-speed rail to some northern cities along the Atlantic coast. However, because the line had to cross the Cantabrian Mountains, they needed to construct a tunnel, one of thr largest in the world in fact. This was supposed to be finished in 2002, but because this is Spain it is finally opening 21 years later in 2023 😂
In Madrid our commuter trains are horrible. But that's just because of the current conservative government. They cut back on the number of trains per hour and then claim public transport doesn't work and that it needs to be privatized. Horrible.
The germans are fucking up everything train related (maybe slightly exaggerated. But only slightly). The whole Brenner project involving this huge tunnel and involving Italy, Austria and Germany. Italy and Austria are nearly finished on their side and Germany hasn't even started construction yet (at least in the bigger sense of the project).
At least Germans are very good with statistics. You don't have to speak German to understand these graphics. The graphic at the end of this page shows the decline of the railway system (in km) https://www.forschungsinformationssystem.de/servlet/is/350049/ The graphic on this page shows the growth of highway (our famous Autobahn) https://de.statista.com/statistik/daten/studie/2972/umfrage/entwicklung-der-gesamtlaenge-des-autobahnnetzes/
If only the budget could have been swapped. Or, if only the DB wasn't run like a for-profit company.
Ich spreche ein bisschen. Ich kann es lesen aber langsam und mit einem Wörterbuch. 😅
The kilometers have been on a long decline. That is sad. You are the wealthiest country in Europe. There is more than enough resources to make an excellent rail system.
Man Ich hoffe ma die machen was for 2070, aber alles ist ja mit den verspätet also wahrscheinlich passiert erst was 2200...
Alter, der Bundesverkehrsminister ist von der FDP. Der fährt doch wahrscheinlich ein fettes Porsche.
The ICEs between NRW and BaWü: Stuttgart-Dortmund, Mannheim-Köln, sometimes but less often Karlsruhe-Köln. Then the occasional trips for pleasure from Stuttgart to Berlin or München.