20
Why does traditional masculinity have such longevity, even among younger boys?
(theconversation.com)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 04 Aug 2024
20 points (64.7% liked)
Men's Liberation
1838 readers
6 users here now
This community is first and foremost a feminist community for men and masc people, but it is also a place to talk about men’s issues with a particular focus on intersectionality.
Rules
Everybody is welcome, but this is primarily a space for men and masc people
Non-masculine perspectives are incredibly important in making sure that the lived experiences of others are present in discussions on masculinity, but please remember that this is a space to discuss issues pertaining to men and masc individuals. Be kind, open-minded, and take care that you aren't talking over men expressing their own lived experiences.
Be productive
Be proactive in forming a productive discussion. Constructive criticism of our community is fine, but if you mainly criticize feminism or other people's efforts to solve gender issues, your post/comment will be removed.
Keep the following guidelines in mind when posting:
- Build upon the OP
- Discuss concepts rather than semantics
- No low effort comments
- No personal attacks
Assume good faith
Do not call other submitters' personal experiences into question.
No bigotry
Slurs, hate speech, and negative stereotyping towards marginalized groups will not be tolerated.
No brigading
Do not participate if you have been linked to this discussion from elsewhere. Similarly, links to elsewhere on the threadiverse must promote constructive discussion of men’s issues.
Recommended Reading
- The Will To Change: Men, Masculinity, And Love by bell hooks
- Politics of Masculinities: Men in Movements by Michael Messner
Related Communities
!feminism@beehaw.org
!askmen@lemmy.world
!mensmentalhealth@lemmy.world
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
What the fuck is this drivel?
This 'study' doesn't study aggression at all. It studies how different people perform in a game of mad libs and then calls some of that aggression.
I'm sure there is a way to measure toxic masculinity. But I grew up in the video game era when people thought playing Mortal Kombat would turn you into the fucking Columbine shooters. It's all bullshit fake pseudo-psychology.
Be very wary of this fake science. There are good researchers out there but this methodology described here is some of the worst shit I've seen for proxy aggression ever.
Such an experiment might be a better test to distinguish between call of duty players and kids that are into biology. Yes, word association in this case is just a load of bull
Exactly. Word completion tasks are impossible to separate from confounding factors: the subject's vocabulary, their family ideolect, their family culture, their local culture, their ability to spell (especially a problem in English), children's tendency to try and please the adults around them....
There are several. Many would even pass IRB review. This "study" has so many flaws that it should be a practice exercise for first-year research students, not something that The Conversation, of all publications, is flogging.
Do you have research experience in psychology or something, to unequivocally say that word completion tasks are BS pseudo/fake science?
Isn't this backwards? Isn't it on the onus of the psychologists out there to prove that word completion tasks are good measurements for aggression?
Statistically / politically speaking, the traditional measurements are like, "Gun Murders per Capita". You know, actual people killing each other, serving as the basis of an argument or indicators of aggression.
You're talking about statistics and sociology. The article talks about a psychology research. How do you make research in psychology?
This is literally an article about culture: traditional masculinity and it's alleged effects on an individual.
Note: I think the argument makes sense. My only qualm here is that the evidence listed fails to pass my muster. I think it's a good question and a worthwhile study. I just wish the evidence was stronger.
Word fragment completion tasks have been used for decades, what makes you think no one made sure it's an effective way to measure things like aggression? Quick google search for example https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1053482212001039
That's not what the study is about though. It's about the relation between aggression and masculinity, how do you measure this with a murder per capita number? You also cannot play with someone's masculinity and give them a gun, and see what happens.
Science is not perfect, especially in a field like psychology. You can't read people's mind. So we find alternate ways to measure things. Doesn't mean it's BS pseudo/fake science. It's just science.
No kidding.
Your argument to prove the efficacy of this is basically "Trust in the decades of Psychological Research". To which I have to say....
My Psychology teacher from High School warned me that Psychology started as a Freudian Pseudo-science, turned into a Phrenology pseudo-science to help make Japanese people look dumber for WW2 propaganda purposes, and then had a bunch of poorly done experiments in the 1950s-1980s for various political games.
Anyone who has studied anything about psychology and its history as a subject is, and should be, 100% skeptical of everything. Including long-standing (decades or even century long) traditions like... IQ Tests or Freudian Psychosexuality.
Psychology has a huge incident rate into pseudo-science / fake topics. I'm sure there's legitimate discoveries in here but I'm also sure that a huge amount of this field is bullshit.
But maybe I'm just a closted mother-lover in my subconcious who is suppressing my feelings of anger towards my father. My Asian skull is smaller than white people skulls so I can't think quite as well as some of you out there. Let along deal with issues of statistical auto-correlation or other such issues that occur in more modern studies.
Its not the science that's bad per se, its the politics that always get in the way. Psychology has a huge number of bad actors in it. And when the ultimate discussion point is "Look at these people... AGGRESSIVELY answering these word-game puzzles with more aggressive words. This proves that they're more aggressive".... I'm rolling my eyes into the back of my head so hard that I'm honestly throwing this entire piece away. Its not science by my standards.
But if its science by your standards, that's... fine I guess.
I get that we don't want to return to the 1970s where we get children to push a button to shock animals, and then determine the length-of-time or frequency of this to use as a proxy as "aggression". And I understand the need and struggle of modern psychologies to try to come up with modern tests that are humane and effective.
But I have severe concerns that this test isn't testing anything at all, aside from the biases of the tester.
Right, it wasn't that long ago that they left dogs in electrocution cages over the weekend to study PTSD. By not long ago I mean they tried to do it again recently but were shot down by their particular ethics board.
I'd say if you are concerned, then the door is open to start a career in psychology research. But I think you'd struggle to move your emotions and pre-convinced notions out of your own way.
Or perhaps there's a simpler option here than me switching careers over a disagreement.
The simpler option is for me to ignore this paper.
That's sure is some verbose ignoring you've been doing.
Sure, jan. Well I've had enough of your armchair psychology for today.
You could've just started with "psychology is a fake science" and saved me some time.
I'm a little curious - what's your personal involvement in psychological research? Which university do you work at, or where is your work published? By what expertise do you claim that the study is false?
Of note, this is published in a peer-reviewed journal.
Jesus Christ, how about countering his actual argument instead of this passive-aggressive appeal to authority? Anyone with actual experience in academia and/or expert knowledge of a subject can tell you there's a lot of drivel that pass peer review, but more importantly, this is Lemmy, a place where people can discuss articles and other content posted to the platform regardless of academic credentials.
I agree with OP that the methodology described in the quote seems incredibly shaky and far-fetched. If you don't agree, let's hear why.
This fundamentally misunderstands the nature of an appeal to authority. The authors of the paper are--presumably--experts in their field. This paper is within their field. Thus, we can induce that this paper is likely correct. This is inductive reasoning. Arguing that it's informal logical fallacy is intentionally misleading.
No.
The authors of the article made a claim. They sourced the claim. Their methodology was checked by peers. The results were published. So this already stands on it's own.
The person saying that it's bullshit has produced nothing other than their own personal beliefs to demonstrate that the authors, the reviewers, and the journal were incorrect. They have given absolutely zero evidence to support their claim, other than assertions that they're not backing up with anything.
Similarly to the above, we can use inductive reasoning to say that a person that has no expertise in this area is like not making a correct claim. Their argument might be free from logical fallacies, and still be entirely wrong because they know fuck-all about the subject. Could the authors be wrong? Of course. But when you balance their expertise, against the respondent's apparent lack of expertise in this field, which is more likely?
Formally, perhaps, sure. I may have phrased that poorly. Let's call it attempting to shut down discussion by appealing to academic credentials instead... had you appealed to the actual research backing the claim, I wouldn't have had an issue with that.
Well done Sherlock! And how useful all of this could have been if in fact we did not know the argument, but fortunately, both OPs claim and the claim of the authors are out in the open here.
...And OP's claims have nothing backing them up other than their say-so. Hence the reason that they can't be taken seriously. The authors of the paper, however, have shown their work, and their work has been checked by peers. OP has done nothing to demonstrated that they have any expertise that would make them capable of forming a critique of the paper, aside from saying "nuh uh!".