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this post was submitted on 01 Dec 2024
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If you can't see where you're going then your speed should be as low as possible. I'm not from SF so maybe it already exists, but ideally there would be traffic calming measures such as lane narrowing, speed bumps, etc and so going faster than around 20 mph or so would feel very unnatural.
Yeah, but those hills are so steep that you've got to give it a ton of gas just to get up them. Like, imagine laying on the gas super hard just to keep yourself going above 20. As you crest the hill, the sun hits your eyes, blinding you to the person that was invisible to you until a millisecond ago, who is crossing against the light at exactly the time you're trying to lay off the gas so you don't start accelerating.
Don't get me wrong, I support every measure listed in the article, and I think the people who want them repealed because they find them inconvenient are assholes. If Daylighting makes it too hard to park, well, maybe don't drive; it's an extremely walkable city with a good public transit system anyway. But this is the only city I've ever been to where, when I hear drivers say, "pedestrians need do better," I think, "well, that's not just entitlement, everyone really does need act responsibly here, even pedestrians."
Sounds like a safety issue to me -- you can let off the gas as you get to the crest of the hill and slow down, until you can see that the coast is clear. You could slow to a crawl, even down shift if necessary in a standard.
If you can't do that at 20 mph in an urban area where people walk, then 20 mph is too fast.
Manual transmissions were better for this stuff too. You can pick a lower gear with more torque to give you power to get up the hill without high speed. Most automatic transmissions can let you force a specific gear as well but many people don't know how to use that function of their car, which can partially be blamed on poor driver education.
In the automatics I've driven, the car automatically downshifts if it needs more power to climb the hill -- do some automatics just stall out?
Sometimes you really gotta ask it to downshift by pushing the pedal down then most follow through with high speed cause they are worried to lose it. Way easier to just start in a good gear.
For me if I let up on the gas, it will slow down, and then downshift to be able to maintain the slower speed on the hill.
I mean, I agree it's a safety issue, I just don't think it's as simple to say, "go slower." As I've said, I've never driven in San Francisco, but I have driven in Vermont, and trying to make a turn at the top of one of those mountain hills is tough, and keeping your momentum going down them is equally tricky. I can only imagine doing that in the middle of a city, and I don't know how I would stop on one of those hills when driving stick.
I think this is like any other hazardous road condition; yes, the driver has the responsibility to slow down and be cautious, but pedestrians also need to be more alert. Like, I expect drivers to stop at crosswalks. I'll take my right of way and won't take shit if they honk or get pissy. But if I'm crossing the street in the middle of a snowstorm, I'm not going act that way; I'm going to acknowledge that, even if the driver is going slow, low visibility and bad conditions means he might not stop in time, and I'm going to wait to make sure he's coming to a stop before I start crossing.
To be clear, I'm not saying that San Fran drivers are all responsible and that the pedestrians are being reckless. It's very possible (likely, even) that these traffic deaths are mostly the fault of bad driving. I'm just saying that I get what people are saying when they say that pedestrians need to be responsible too. I'm someone who jay walks all the time, and I don't do that in that city.
I really don't think there is any defense for driving too fast for the conditions. You might hit a pedestrian. You might hit another car. You might hit an object in the road. If you cannot stop in time to avoid crashing into a relatively stationary object, you're going too fast.
"What about hitting a bolder on the road behind a blind turn?" That's bad luck. A lot of us routinely drive too fast for the conditions, but it's still our responsibility as operator of the vehicle.
When I see pileups from drivers going too fast in the snow and ice, I blame them for not going slow enough, not having the right equipment, or even going out at all. So many of these collisions are not "accidents", they're so preventable.
In fog, weather, or low light conditions, it makes sense to be a defensive driver or pedestrian, in case the other driver is being irresponsible, but the responsibility is still on the driver to drive safely.
You're right it's not as simple as saying "go slower" we have to improve the roads to encourage safe driving and discourage dangerous driving. Things like flashing signs that say dangerous turn, slow down. If there is a dangerous turn at the top of the hill, maybe put a no turn sign there. Or make it less dangerous some other way.
If you could explain more about the difficulty of driving in hills, maybe that would help me understand what you're getting at. I drive stick but also automatic. For me, if anything, more speed makes it easier to slip/skid or go wide at the top of the hill, but if you slow down you can do it. I've never worried about stalling or going backwards, just downshift into the appropriate gear. It does take practice to do it smoothly though.
On super steep driveways you might need to depress the clutch partially in to go "slower" than first gear, which isn't great for the clutch, but it's necessary, just like it is for controlling your speed when reversing. With automatic transmission I haven't worried about any of this at all, just use the gas and brakes normally to slow down to make the turn.
For automatics driving a long down hill I've noticed that some newer ones automatically downshift to help you brake, but some of the old ones you have to downshift manually (in the automatic) so you're not burning out the brakes.
I only drive automatic. When I was in Vermont, I found it tricky to make some of the sharper turn-offs going uphill, having to gun it a little more than I wanted on a turn just to keep moving, then having more momentum on the turn than I intended. Coming downhill, it made me very nervous to try and turn off some of those side roads; I'd pull out as far as I could to get as much visibility as possible, but the crest of a hill would mean I couldn't see traffic more than 20 or 30 feet. I'd find myself wanting to turn as quickly as possible for fear of getting hit by someone with right of way, but accidentally giving it a little too much and turning too fast and hard.
I also just generally found myself constantly needing to monitor my speed downhill, to the point where it was a little distracting. I've never driven stick, but my friend does, and after listening to her break it down a bit, it seems even more stressful; accidentally rolling downhill because you're not properly maintaining momentum seems insane to me.
I agree that the driver is responsible for maintaining safe speeds, and I know my biases lie way more with pedestrians than drivers. I grew up in New York City, and I think there's nothing wrong with crossing against the light or outside of a crosswalk if you're paying attention. However, whenever I see someone going 5 miles over the speed limit or not using their blinker, I can't help but think they're an irresponsible asshole.
Honestly, I'm in my late thirties, and I didn't even have a license or car until 2 years ago, when my wife and I had a kid. Public transit where I live now (Boston) is not great, and the two ER visits we've had to make with my son alone have made the car worth it to me. If we never had kids, though, I don't think we'd ever own a car.
I mean, what you're saying about being a defensive pedestrian is basically what I'm getting at. There are cities I've been to (mostly in the South) where drivers are just pieces of shit. In New Orleans, no one yielded to pedestrians, and I almost got hit by some asshole at 40 mph because the giant SUV parked in front of the crosswalk meant I couldn't see them coming. I don't think there's any reason pedestrians need to be the ones behaving defensively in the flattest city I've ever seen in my life.
But to me, half of the intersections in San Francisco felt like a hazardous condition. While I think that all safety regulations should be aimed at cars, and I normally get annoyed at safety campaigns that focus on pedestrians' behavior instead of drivers', I do think encouraging cautious pedestrian habits is justified there.