159
Zelensky admits Ukraine does not have military strength to reclaim lost territories from Russia
(www.independent.co.uk)
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 19 Dec 2024
159 points (88.8% liked)
World News
32523 readers
923 users here now
News from around the world!
Rules:
-
Please only post links to actual news sources, no tabloid sites, etc
-
No NSFW content
-
No hate speech, bigotry, propaganda, etc
founded 5 years ago
MODERATORS
"Save lives" are you dense? Russia is kidnapping, torturing, killing and deporting Ukrainians in the occupied regions on an industrial scale. Every time Russia retreated, mass graves and torture cbambers were found.
Ukraine is conscripting Ukrainians like any other country that has been attacked before it has done. The west could have equipped those poeple. The west could have trained those people. In fact, most Ukrainians that are currently dodging the draft are saying that they would let themselves get drafted, if they were properly equipped and trained. It's in the west's power to do that. They just don't want to. Also, you just conveniently ignore the absolutely horrific losses the Russians are having with theirmeat wave assaults. But I guess in your world view, Zelensky is responsible for that too.
One has to be an utterly gullible racist to believe in the meat wave assaults narrative https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng-trl
If you can't even read the first two paragraphs of your own source
Yeah, these are estimates based on actual evidence, as opposed to made up numbers. It's not exhaustive, but it gives a realistic idea of the scale of casualties. Meanwhile, there is zero evidence for any kinds of meat waves. There's not a single video of that happening from the past 3 years of the war. It's a narrative that only the most gullible people could believe. The reality is that this is a war of attrition where vast majority of casualties come from artillery and Russia enjoys a 10x artillery advantage.
Rehashing literal WW2 Nazi propaganda bc libs haven't even gotten past that myth
funny how many views libs and nazis share
There was a video posted literally a week ago of north koreans 'rushing' a Ukrainian stronghold and getting demolished out in the open. We have multiple, as in more than a dozen, statements by Russian personell, that their squads are suffering up to 90% losses. Bakhmut alone cost over 30.000 Russian lives.
Let's this video of north Koreans 😂
[citation needed]
Bakhmut was likely the costliest battle of the war for Russia, however as you look at the casualties it's clear they've been steadily going down https://en.zona.media/article/2022/05/20/casualties_eng-trl
There's been claims of north Koreans captured here, spotted attacking there, giving an interview in Russian uniform, and yet not a single piece of evidence has ever been provided. If the state department said tomorrow that Bigfoot had been spotted in Donbas and was fighting for Russia half of you would be here repeating it as incontrovertible fact since there's all that evidence.
Serious citations needed. Please do not spread atrocity propaganda in this comm.
How about UN reports? You can find them by simply googling.
I've found no UN reports detailing activities such as those on an industrial scale. Please cite the UN reports.
https://www.ohchr.org/sites/default/files/documents/hrbodies/hrcouncil/coiukraine/a-hrc-55-66-aev.pdf
2.58.
Literally the first report I opened.
Continue, you only have several more claims that aren't cited. For example, the use of language "industrial scale" for torture.
Also please keep in mind that this isn't a high standard of evidence, as UN reports often are influenced- such as the significant citations of the German fascist Adrien Zenz in some of their reporting on China.
Please enlighten me what the substantive difference between 'industrial scale' and 'systematic and widespread' is. Not enough conveyor belts and smokestacks?
Similarly, please point out to me what your exact issue is with the report I linked.
Also, citation needed that Zenz is a fascist. I found much criticism of him, but no credible allegation that he is a fascist.
Literally the difference between the holocaust and a pogrom.
A lack of institutional credibility and an unwillingness to read a 20 page report that references things that have already been debunked- for example, i took a vertical slice to dig into, looking in detail about their claims of abducted children that do not align with the reality of later western-biased reporting on the issue.
He describes himself as a "Christian Nationalist" and "on a God given mission to destroy China" and his institute used to be a cia front (arguably still is, although it has now been obscured through another front organization) If he isn't a fascist, he is close enough to the picture that he still isn't credible.
Bucha has high likelihood of being black flag/theater propaganda. It's not like Israel denying they committed the first gaza hospital for 2 day media blitz, and then destroying all of the other ones. You can't trust Ukrainian PR because it is entirely a fundraising campaign.
Woah... Holy shit, you actually said that... "kidnapping, torturing, killing" - literally what Zelensky's regime is doing.
Woah, other regimes are also gasing people and trying to set their cars on fire? They must be good ones.
I know I know, all of us would gladly die for your interests, and those of us who wouldn't are Russian agents.
So you want to sell me one incident that is acknowledged and is being investigated as a gotcha to discredit the systematic and widespread torture the Russian state is employing? You really are dense.
And again, you want to sell me one incident that is being investigated as a gotcha to the illegal and widespread use of tear gas by Russia in this war? Not beating my accusation there, you are.
Holy fuck, and you are telling me that I'm dense... That's what happens every single day, it's in the mainstream western media for a long time now - https://www.yahoo.com/news/m-ukrainian-conscription-officer-people-070000956.html. Zelensky's regime kidnaps and beats people every single day, thanks to your support.
How many accidents would be enough for you to admit that Zelensky is terrorizing Ukrainians with your support? That's a rhetorical question of course, obviously Zelensky can do whatever he wants as long as Russians are dying as well, right?
How about enough for a UN report on torture like for Russia you clown?
Got it, Zelensky can kidnap, torture and murder people until UN releases a report on it. Thanks for clarification. At least you set some red line, usually its simple "to the last Ukrainian" kind of thing :/
Yes comrade, I too envision Zelensky personally pressimg a gun to the temple of every Ukrainian that refuses to get drafted. What a despicable behavior, to make out the victim of an invasion to be the perpetrator.
There is exactly one person that can end the invasion with the snap of a finger, and that person is Putin.
Ah, so if he's not doing the atrocities personally then it's all ok? Gotcha :)
I hope you aren't implying that Zelensky is a victim? For him this war is literally the best thing that could ever happen to him - he gets to rule the xountry for as long as he wish, reveives billions from the west, travels around thr world telling stories about how hr protects the democracy, etc. The victims are Ukrainians whom he (well, his rehime if you want to differentiate those things for some reason..) confines, kidnaps, tortures and murders.
So?
Still dense, gotcha (:
Yes comrade, I too beg my neighbouring country to invade me, so I can stay in power. I thank them every time I'm attending a funeral of one of my soldiers.
I just love how at the start of your meaningless ramble you were "concerned" for Ukrainian victims. But as soon as it gets pointed out who really has the power to stop this invasion you feign ignorance... Or you're really just that dense, that's a possibility too of course.
So why exactly doesn't it make sense? :)
Yeah, you are quite dense :)
I am concerned for Ukrainian victims, because me my friends and my family are potentially one of them.
What ignorance? What Putin's/Russia's ability to end the war has to do with Zelensky's commiting atrocities on Ukrainians?
Libs love Ukrainians until they meet one who doesn't agree with their narrative
So far very few libs even admitted that I might be a Ukrainian, CNN (or whatever else) told them that everybody not glorifying Zelensky's atrocities is either a Russian bot or Russian propagandist, no third options here.
Libs love the platonic ideal of what they imagine a Ukrainian to be. They’re not interested in actual, flesh & blood, working class Ukrainians, and especially not in real life eastern Ukrainians who were terrorized by western Ukrainian neo-Nazi paramilitaries for nearly a decade.
Why doesn't it make sense? For the same reason the normal person doesn't enjoy torturing pets.
You sure are a "potential victim" of Ukrainian drafting. That's why you spend your hours browsing the tankie instance of Lemmy. Yep. Yep.
If you really believe that Zelensky is committing "atrocities", then surely you are in favor of removing the one reason why Zelensky is committing those "atrocities". And also the reson he uses to "cheekily" stay in office by the by.
Yeah that's quite dense. I literally gave you proof of tortures by Zelensky's regime, Ukrainian parliament members are admitting that there are more of such cases, all the kidnapping beatings deaths and so on, and your argument is "well what you are saying doesn't make sense because a normal person wouldn't do that". He is not a normal person. He is sadistic mass murderer.
Again - why doesn't it make sense? :)
What kind of fucked up logic is that?? "Yeah that guy tortures, kidnaps, murders and so on - instead of removing him let's try to figure out what we can do so that he might stop". Woah.
If some guy kills your entire family - I propose we do the same as you propose here - not put him into jail or anything, but you know - talk with him why did he do it and ask him not to do that anymore.
So in your mind Zelensky is killing those people. Not the invading army? And you did not provide sources to claim that Zelensky is a "sadistic mass murderer" You provided two separate incidents that are being investigated.
Yes, obviously. If he did not kidnap people off the streets (after forbidding people to leave the country so that there is more cannon fodder) and forcibly sent to the frontlines, those people would be alive, wouldn't they?
The "invading army" also killed many people of course (the civilians who got hit by rockets/drones) so of course the war should be finished as soon as possible (but this is not in Zelensky's interest because he will lose power and all those billions of dollars), but the number is just incomparable to the amount of people Zelensky has killed and terrorized (and continues to kill and terrorize).
So, forbidding millions of people to leave the country so that they can be kidnapped off a street and then sent to die does not fit your definition of "sadistic mass murderer"?
Well, then I can only wish you to one day have such a glorious leader in your country as well, that will do to you and your family the same absolutely not horrific things that you support him doing to Ukrainians.
So is Zelensky responsible for Russian deaths too?
No, those are on Putin.
The west does not support Putin (at least not nearly in the same capacity they support Zelensky) though, so at least there is that. And while I'm sorry for the Russians as well, I think you may understand that I'm more worried about Zelensky trying to exterminate me and people close to me than I'm about what Putin does to Russians.
You sure do have a lot of energy to complain about Ukraine while bending over backwards to avoid acknowledging that there might be some kind of external event that might be impacting these things, like, I dunno, some kind of invasion or something. Maybe if those people left, that would also be a solution??? Just spitballing here. But truly, giving up is the best solution for ~~everyone~~ Russia.
They're not leaving until NATO and Ukraine abandons NATO membership, but they are leaving as soon as they do. Why fight for that purpose?
“You don’t need to be protected from us” he said while invading.
Yeah, again, not a winning argument here.
Why are you trying to make me responsible for the invasion? How is this my fault? How is this fault of every other (well, non-Nazi ones anyway) Ukrainian? Why do you support terrorizing, murdering and torturing all of us?
Well since I said “you” and you aren’t the entire population of Ukraine (I assume, but maybe you do in fact contain multitudes) I don’t see how this is relevant at all!