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this post was submitted on 05 Jan 2025
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It's not too late. The 14th amendment Section 3 specifically prohibits an insurrectionist from holding public office unless a special Congressional vote is held and passes with a 2/3rds majority.
All US citizens should call their representatives and demand they uphold their sworn Constitutional duty to refuse the certification of Donald Trump's victory as he is disqualified from holding office.
This is not speculation. Donald Trump was successfully impeached for inciting insurrection. The US is in the middle of a Constitutional crisis which Congress must resolve.
Finding your reps is easy. Go here:
https://www.congress.gov/members/find-your-member
Either let the site use your location or enter your home address. It'll pull all the info you need in one click.
With great sadness I'll remind you that a majority of voters elected Trump.
At this point it just doesn't really matter what the rules are. It hasn't mattered before now. It certainly isn't going to matter just a few weeks after the citizens expressed their desire that he be president.
I take issue with your assertion that the document on which all other US law depends and from which all US public offices are granted their authority does not matter. It must. We ought to insist it does. Especially while it is being violated.
Sadly, it doesn't matter.
I'm grieving right along with you.
My point is, when someone is democratically elected in a free and fair election then the rules don't really matter because they're supposed to be derived from the will of the people anyway.
Using the law to undermine a democratic process is not the way.
You've fundamentally misunderstood this. Upholding Constitutional law cannot undermine the democratic process which it establishes.
If I win a game by breaking its rules I am de-facto disqualified from that victory. Yes, all law is written by people, can be unmade by people, and is only in effect so long as we collectively agree to enforce it, however; if the law is not unmade and if we collectively sigh in apathy at its violation then we are no longer playing the game the rules have defined.
This is the immense danger of the current Constitutional crisis. If there is no enforcement of the rules set forth in a government's founding document then it can no longer be recognized as the body which that document defines.
I'm not debating the law and how it's supposed to work.
I'm agreeing that the law is only relevant if you collectively agree to enforce it.
Sadly, in a recent election polling the entire nation, Americans collectively agreed to disregard the law in this instance.
Did you stop reading your link at the title? Literally the third sentence:
If you want to dig into the arguments about what is and isn't legally insurrection and if the 14th Amendment is self executing or not, that is an interesting discussion. But, don't lead with a "pants on head" stupid argument that the House passed Articles of Impeachment, for which the Senate acquitted him, as evidence that the 14th Amendment applies. Just fucking no.
Nope. I read it. The language of the 14th doesn't require an impeachment or other formal conviction to apply. The fact that Trump was successfully impeached for inciting an insurrection is enough. The Senate's failure to execute its duty does not erase reality.
At this time, on this topic, I am not concerned with what makes for interesting conservation. I am interested in bringing attention to the ongoing Constitutional crisis of Trump's tentative second term.
Do you actually understand how impeachment works? The House passing articles of impeachment means very little. For a legal equivalent, it's like the grand jury agreeing to indict. Should we be punishing criminals just because charges were brought against them, even if they were acquitted? Of course not. While the House has the Power to Impeach:
The reality of the situation is that the Impeachment of Trump isn't a factor in the 14th Amendment barring him. Had the Senate convicted, it would have been a cut and dried situation, but that didn't happen. Were Trump convicted for insurrection for his actions on January 6th, it would again be an easy situation. The reason there is such an interesting conversation, and not much else, around the 14th Amendment and Trump is that the legal situation isn't clear. Lots of folks have said that Trump's actions were an insurrection, but he hasn't actually been convicted of it. Congress could probably bar him from holding office, but that hasn't happened.
I'd also point out how insane it would be for the House's Power to Impeach to become the de facto bar for executing the 14th Amendment's bar on holding office. This requires a simple majority in the House. Really think that one through. You want the House to be able to bar any person from holding Federal Office, based on a simple majority vote? The level of chaos that would create would be insane.
I do. Thanks. You're still focused on the wrong thing here.
Section 3 of the 14th Amendment does not require any specific test which defines "insurrection". The impeachment is a useful anchor for establishing an agreement that an insurrection did occur and that Trump was, at the very least, an active participant in that insurrection.
The Insurrection Bar to Office: Section 3 of the Fourteenth Amendment (crsreports.congress.gov) provides an well crafted and neutral review of this. Its closing sentence is particularly relevant to our back and forth:
Republican strategy has long revolved around the targeted devolution of norms. They hide in the cracks between definitions which assume good faith participation in the labor of mutually consensual governance and shield themselves in perpetual faux-victimhood. If Congress does not pursue the execution of Section 3 it is nothing less than an abdication of their duty to their Oath of Office.
Your last paragraph is a result of misunderstandings and assumptions on your part.
Ya, the real problem is that it doesn't. As specifically stated by the CRS:
And that difficulty is why that whole document exists, there isn't clear legal guidance. And the historic precedents on it are a mess. Yes, either house of Congress has the power to refuse to seat a member of their respective house and have used the 14th Amendment as a reason in the past. Moreover, Congress could pass a law which sets out a legal framework; but, that's not really happened either. The whole reason that this is even a discussion is that lack of clarity.
Arguably, Congress did try to do something, the House Impeached Trump. The Senate dropped the ball. And the American people then buried that ball far enough to interfere with Satan's daily activities by re-electiong Trump. It's a bad situation, but also not one we're going to solve by misrepresenting the law. Especially by handing The House the sole power to determine what Presidential Candidates have engaged in insurrection by a simple majority vote (the requirement to impeach). If you want to bring up "devolution of norms", that sort of power is going to take the cake. Anytime we have a split government, we're going to see impeachment and barring from office on the flimsiest of excuses. What we need isn't half-baked ideas but an actual, well considered framework.
I think it's down to you moving the goalposts. You specifically stated:
You are arguing that the House Impeaching is enough to trigger Section 3 of the 14th Amendment. Which is what I'm calling ridiculous. Trump being convicted by the Senate would have clearly barred him from holding office again. The reality is that he was acquitted. That's the part which is actually important.
He was impeached but not convicted by the feckless, obsequious Senate. And he wasn't convicted by the courts. So this won't happen, unfortunately
Neither of those facts preclude the application of the 14th. The barrier is whether or not someone holding public office, having taken an oath to uphold the Constitution, breaks that oath via insurrection against the same. It does not matter that Trump was not punished. The acquittal does not erase the reality of the past: it is a dismissal of immediate consequences. Nothing more.
The fact that Congress acknowledged the reality of January 6th is more than enough for the 14th to apply.