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this post was submitted on 08 Jan 2025
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Oblivion's start was so much more memorable than Skyrim's. Getting taught the basics by escaping prison and then immediately being served the full open world after that was magnificent.
The best start is in Morrowind, where you're released from prison and fill out paperwork!
Followed by "Go to Balmora and visit someone. Balmora is north of us."
That's one of the best things about Morrowind vs. the later games (and I'm not even joking this time). It makes you explore the world, not just warp to quest objectives. It has fast travel, but it makes you earn it and think about how to use it effectively.
This video about Morrowind fast travel and this one about mini-maps are both so good and I wish all open-world game designers would take heed.
Okay, now I've watched the second video. That's a good one, too!
My main takeaway is that I'm a big fan of "diegetic navigation" and have now learned the name for that concept, which is cool.
I also not only agree with the author that (non-diegetic) UI elements like minimaps and quest objective markers should be off by default, I would maybe even go further and say they should be considered "player assists" in the same way as things like auto-aim, and enabling them should count as turning down the difficulty. Hopefully, that would solve the problem of the game developer using them as a crutch/substitute for immersive quest navigation instructions.
I think a (UI, not diegetic) compass that just points north (i.e. without having quest markers on it) is a special case, though, because it could be given an in-game justification and turned into a gameplay element. For example, maybe if you choose to play as a bird-person you get a compass as a racial perk to represent your ability to sense magnetic fields. Or maybe the game's magic system has a spell to augment the character's sense of direction temporarily, or something like that.
Or you could just have an actual compass. Either as an item in the game or as something the game sorta just assumed you have (like how it typically assumes you have underwear). People have been using compasses IRL for thousands of years. No reason a mediaeval fantasy game couldn't do the same.
That's the "diegetic" option. I'm cool with having any sort of navigation (up to and including a GPS with objective markers and turn-by-turn navigation, for a game like Grand Theft Auto) if it's diegetic.
I've watched that first video (haven't had time for the second yet), and I agree, it's great!
I do kinda wish it had mentioned how you can
spoiler
earn access to the propylon networkspoiler
the propylon network isn't as useful as the other forms of transit because it doesn't connect to any of them. If only Abelle Chriditte could've been convinced to be a Mages Guild Guide (only after you reached her by other means, so as not to be too easy)...The lack of quest markers create the most memorable adventures and the most frustrating adventures.
Stumbling upon ruins and caves while you stumbling around trying to find where you are suppose to go.
Frustrating as sometimes those directions were so vague......also you always find yourself in an area of cliff racers.
Speaking of which, having the honor of meeting Jiub (pre-sainthood) is the real reason Morrowind's start is the best. 😍
That's amazing
As opposed to Skyrim where you learn the basics by escaping a fucking dragon, guards(because you’re a prisoner), and a creature as well(I think it’s a bear?). And then immediately served the full open world.
Buddy, like what you like and all but Skyrim’s tutorial sequence is at least the same and arguably better.
I definitely see your point, and I had to think about why I found the Skyrim tutorial so much less memorable. And I think, to me, it's that it's the tutorial, so you just know that the dragon isn't going to kill you. Similarly, you know that the prison guards and assassins in Oblivion won't kill you, but you don't know that about the emperor. And unlike the dudes that ride with you on the carriage during the opening scene of Skyrim, I've got at least the faintest connection to Oblivion's emperor dude. Like, I really couldn't have cared less when it was said that Ulfrik, the rebel leader, was on the carriage, too. I don't know anything about the rebellion, so if the guy would've been executed right then and there, I just couldn't have cared.
The first time I played it, I definitely didn't know this. I mean, I knew it wouldn't kill me, but I didn't know it couldn't. I assumed that if I didn't actually hurry, it would get me.
But I agree re Ulfric. The game sets you up to make this important-seeming early decision about Imperial vs Stormcloak, but it doesn't give you any of the tools needed to engage with that story that early. Heck, I'm sure I can't be the only one who, because I was hurrying away from the dragon, didn't even realise you can enter the building with a Stormcloak escapee or with an Imperial, and just went with whichever I happened to notice first.
You put to words how I felt about it. I couldn't have given less a shit about these people, I don't know them nor their troubles and dilemmas about their country.
"Choose who you're gonna side with!" brother I know nothing about either of your organizations, me going with you isn't me siding with your whole organization, I just want to get the fuck out of here.
I remember my first playthrough similarly - I joined the Stormcloaks thinking the rebels are usually the good guy underdogs... that was before they started spouting their racist ayrean views, lost all sympathy for the cause at that point and made that storyline less enjoyable.
Congratulations, you experienced what it's like to be a member of MAGA.
Skyrim makes an attempt to keep you on the main quest, sending you to that little town/tavern in the valley, trying to push you to Whiterun and some intro sidequests.
Oblivion just dumps you out of the sewer pipe with Kvatch being a faint background thought, smack dab in the center of the open map.
And then Morrowind actually tells you to stop doing the mainquest and sandbox for a while.
Followed by linking up with that wet noodle Martin.
Who you know for a fact will die because he is voiced by Sean Bean.
"Let's continue on to Weynon Priory"
Instantly ruined by the ability to teleport to the main city
To ANY city.
Fortunately, I discovered that an hour or two in, so I still got some free roam in!
I played Oblivion for 10+ hours. Game was fantastic, I was hooked. I complained to my friend who had recommended me the game about how much walking there was. He explained fast travel.
To this day it's still a running joke: "You can fast travel?!?"
But you basically just described skyrims beggining as well lmao
Not knocking oblivion I love them both.
You mean more memorable than nearly getting executed and having to escape a dragon attack?
Yeah, not really. And I've played both.
Even this should tell you enough:
I think people just give Skyrim a lot more hate because it's been the last in the series for so, so long.
Oblivion was probably the #2 most memorable intro/tutorial of its' rough time period to me. #1 is stealing a bike in an alleyway.
Ah shit, here we go again.
All we had to do, was follow the damn train, CJ!
Yeah I think you're pretty much right about the hate. Plus, if Bethesda used to be better then that gives us excuse now to keep bringing up how mad we are about their current state.
I never finished Oblivion but it was because I was not playing many games then. Skyrim, I did finish and played many hours, because it literally pulled me out of being bored with games for years. The game was infuckingcredible regardless of the hate directed at it.
I also loved Morrowind. I can't remember if many people hate that one or not, but it's Bethesda, so probably.
I played Skyrim a few months ago and felt like my soul was getting sucked out. I just kept asking myself "what am I doing? Why am I playing this?", and stopped after a few hours.
I think the straw that broke the camel's back was when I encountered a group of bandits that tried to attack me. I went into the cave they seemed to be operating out of and was greeted by a named NPC called "ulfric the blind" or something. He said something like "[name] is that you?", and I thought "oh I wonder if I'll be able to fool this guy into thinking I'm someone he knows. I wonder what could have driven this old man to banditry, or if he and his family have been in the game so long he's now elderly. Or maybe instead of information about his life he'll inadvertently reveal some secret that can help me. Regardless I'll probably have to carefully choose what I say if I want to get the most out of this".
Then the only dialogue choices were "yeah I'm him [end conversation]" and "he's dead, you're next [end conversation]".
... So you were super disappointed that the very old game which was incredibly complex for its time (and still is in many ways) didn't get more complicated since, what was it, 2012?
I sometimes play Quake 1, released 1996, from the lens of 1996. I mean I can see the graphics are bad by today's standards. And it was simple in most ways by today's standards. But the game was still a huge game changer in every way and looks great if you remember the games that came before it.
Skyrim released in 2011.
New Vegas released in 2010.
Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines released in 2004
Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magic Obscura released in 2000
Plainscape: Torment released in 1999
Fallout 1 and 2 released in 97 and 98 respectively.
The concept of a good RPG wasn't invented in the last few years.
The concept of good gameplay and encounter design wasn't invented in the last few years either.
If the idea is that Skyrim isn't good because it's not your idea of a specific kind of rpg game, I got nothing for ya. It was a great game for so many of us.
What's good about it then? I don't mean that as an insult to you or your taste, I am genuinely asking because I'm the sort of person that likes to think about games. I've spent hours listening to GDC talks on game design, hours looking at map viewers for some of my favorite games. When I play a new game I take screenshots and make notes about my thoughts while playing it.
From what I saw playing Skyrim there's basically nothing there in terms of NPC dialogue, very little in terms of environmental storytelling, world design, and worldbuilding, and usually not very much atmosphere or sound design. And that's on top of the completely vacuous gameplay. If the game did even a single one of these things well I would have considered it to be good, but for me there's just nothing there.
I am aware that the Elder Scrolls series in general has interesting lore and metaphysics based on Hindu mythology. But it's my understanding that the person who came up with most of that no longer works at Bethesda. And while I was playing Skyrim even googling some of the things I encountered (such as "why do the draugr attack you") failed to elicit feelings of intrigue.
I did like the amount of verticality you experience ascending the main mountain though. That was cool map design IMO.
EDIT:
Most of the games that I listed are pretty vastly different from each other, but they all do at least one thing that's interesting. Skyrim not being "a specific kind" of RPG has nothing to do with it.
So, I could go back and look at screenshots to jog my memory and write up my thoughts/experience, link you to reviews/articles/videos/etc, but I'm a little confused how you can be the type of person who is this into games (about 3 times more into them even when I was most into them in the early aughts), but somehow miss that there was anything good about one of the most popular games ever made. You would've needed to stubbornly avoid or dismiss hundreds of data points to have missed all of the good points of this game. It was a cultural phenomenon. I know people who still play it...on Switch for Christ's sake.
Because I know you could not have missed everything good about the game, but seem to claim to have, I'm gonna have to bow out. You might wanna work on your approach if you want people to feel comfortable sharing their opinion. Besides the overall "what exactly is good about the Beatles?" vibes here, the first sentence and a skim of this comment comes off pretty shitty tbh.
Morrowind is certainly a product of its time, so with the weird weapon hit chance mechanic and without voice acting, I can definitely understand why some people might not be able to get into it. But Morrowind has the best world design by a long shot and offers a lot more player freedom, too.
I think most people tend to regard Morrowind as peak Bethesda/Elder Scrolls. At least I do.
Idk, Skyrim seemed like a fun house opening. With big things coming at us we know won't kill us. In Oblivion, we are greeted by the fucken emperor, and he wants to talk to US, a prisoner, and then he hero's journeyed us into importance. It just seemed a lot more impactful than Skyrim's.
That didn't load for me so I'm going to pretend it was the macho man Randy Savage dragon mod.