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My father told me he wanted to make USB flash drives of all the scanned and digitized family photos and other assorted letters and mementos. He planned to distribute them to all family members hoping that at least one set would survive. When I explained that they ought to be recipes to new media every N number of years or risk deteriorating or becoming unreadable (like a floppy disk when you have no floppy drive), he was genuinely shocked. He lost interest in the project that he’d thought was so bullet proof.

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[-] mox@lemmy.sdf.org 88 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

I explained that they ought to be recipes to new media every N number of years or risk deteriorating or becoming unreadable

This is important, and for some media, it should be more often than that.

People forget that flash memory uses electrical charge to store data. It's not durable. If left unpowered for too long, that data will get corrupted. A failure might not even be visible without examining every bit of every file.

Keep backups. Include recovery data (e.g. PAR2). Store them on multiple media. Keep them well-maintained (e.g. give flash drives power). Mind their environment. Copy them to new storage devices before the old ones become obsolete.

It's funny that with all our technology, paper is still the most durable storage medium (under normal conditions) that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

[-] SkyNTP@lemmy.ml 24 points 3 months ago

It's funny that with all our technology, paper is still the most durable storage medium (under normal conditions) that doesn't cost an arm and a leg.

Sophistication often creates fragility. The human mind marvels at sophistication naturally; appreciation for resilience usually only comes after that fragile thing has broken. Of course it's too late by then.

All them young whipper snappers will continue to learn these life lessons the hard way, it seems.

[-] BehindTheBarrier@programming.dev 16 points 3 months ago

If I had a cent every time an artist on patron had their computer die on them and lost works in progress or all their old stuff... I'd afford a few coffees.

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[-] rottingleaf@lemmy.world 12 points 3 months ago

Tape backups, baby.

No, I don't have a library of those. I don't even have a tape drive.

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[-] wrekone@lemmyf.uk 11 points 3 months ago

Anything important, I write on clay tablets.

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[-] mctoasterson@reddthat.com 76 points 3 months ago

This is where "piracy" is actually the industry's saving grace. Decades or centuries later, will record labels exist and be well-managed (and flush with cash) enough to preserve archival copies of their artists catalogs? Probably not.

Will obscure weirdos exist all around the world on Usenet, IRC, or seeding torrents? Possibly.

[-] frostwhitewolf@lemmy.world 27 points 3 months ago

What is really being discussed here is archiving of master recordings and session files. The publically avaliable releases themselves aren't really in jeopardy. Orthough piracy probably does provide an extra layer of security to more obscure releases.

[-] tunetardis@lemmy.ca 16 points 3 months ago

I thought I read somewhere that when they were making one of the Toy Story movies, there was some catastrophic data loss that nearly tanked the whole production. But then one of the animators came back from maternity and said wait, I think I have most of it synced to my home server? And the next thing you know, John Lasseter himself is barrelling down the highway to her place and it turned out yeah, she did have it.

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[-] curry@programming.dev 24 points 3 months ago

Many films and tv programs survive only thanks to a total stranger keeping their own copy. For a long term survival of any media it has to be copied and distributed far and wide.

[-] Shimitar@feddit.it 71 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

There is no "write and forget" solution. There never has been.

Do you think we have ORIGINALS or Greek or roman written texts? No, we have only those that have been copied over and over in the course of the centuries. Historians knows too well. And 90% of anything ever written by humans in all history has been lost, all that was written on more durable media than ours.

The future will hold only those memories of us that our descendants will take the time to copy over and over. Nothing that we will do today to preserve our media will last 1000 years in any case.

(Will we as a specie survive 1000 more years?)

Still, it our duty to preserve for the future as much as we can. If today's historians are any guide, the most important bits will be those less valuable today: the ones nobody will care to actually preserve.

Citing Alessandro Barbero, a top notch Italian current historian, he would kill no know what a common passant had for breakfast in the tenth century. We know nothing about that, while we know a tiny little more about kings.

[-] futatorius@lemm.ee 15 points 3 months ago

Do you think we have ORIGINALS or Greek or roman written texts?

In some cases we do. For example, the documents at Pompeii, those at Qumran, and other rare instances where documents have been preserved from the time they're written. It's also true that we have far more copies than originals, and that we've lost most of the works of many ancient authors.

[-] endofline@lemmy.ca 7 points 3 months ago

There is: mdiscs. Allegedly 1000 years durability even in Blu-ray format. Should be good enough for most important things. The best tapes AFAIK 30- 100 years

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[-] Toes@ani.social 54 points 3 months ago

Yeah if you're looking for long term it needs to be archival media. Many people think the flash drive will hold it forever but they are potentially the most fickle.

[-] leisesprecher@feddit.org 20 points 3 months ago

But what actually is "archival"?

Like, what technology normal person has access to counts at least as enthusiast level archival?

Magnetic tape, optical media, flash, HDD all rot away, potentially within frighteningly short timeframes and often with subtle bitrot.

[-] TimeSquirrel@kbin.melroy.org 23 points 3 months ago

1960s style punch cards. Made of concrete.

[-] Pheonixdown@lemm.ee 22 points 3 months ago

I write these words in steel, for anything not set in metal cannot be trusted.

[-] thejml@lemm.ee 14 points 3 months ago
[-] hoghammertroll@lemm.ee 7 points 3 months ago

Can't spell trust without rust

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[-] Gradually_Adjusting@lemmy.world 16 points 3 months ago

M-DISC, at a guess. The media would last long enough at least for grandkids, who will have bigger things to worry about.

[-] thejml@lemm.ee 10 points 3 months ago

Don’t forget, you also need drives that work that long and connect to computers or some other device to utilize the bits, and the bus they use must be available and working, and the disk format they’re written in must be readable, and the images themselves encoded with an algorithm that we still have access to, etc. it’s not just the media.

I think it’s possible, thanks to the retro enthusiasts, we still have access to some things from the 70s and 80s, but they’re getting fewer and fewer, especially in a working state. That’s only 50yrs ago. What happens when you want to go 100? Or 500? A few thousand? We are familiar with journals from the Civil War, and have found items and notes from Egypt, Roman, and Ancient Greek civilizations, how can we preserve what happened in the currently information rich time we live in, for future generations? Especially as much of it migrates online to blog posts and social networks and news sites that eventually shut down due to corporate issues or shifting internet traffic?

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[-] whocares314@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

Probably M Disk as others have said for consumer use, but Microsoft is working on storing data in glass that could last for potentially 100,000 years +. Not that you’d ever likely have that in your home. Although, maybe by 2100 we will, who knows. https://www.microsoft.com/en-us/research/project/project-silica/

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[-] TechSquidTV@lemmy.world 31 points 3 months ago

Im really hoping, waiting, for a good dense long-term storage medium. It doesn't have to be fast, but large, cheap, and durable. I want a way to backup my plex library, or even, daily backups of documents and project files, and I don't want to think about them ever again.

[-] werefreeatlast@lemmy.world 19 points 3 months ago

It does has to be fast enough that you can transfer the files to a different disk within your lifetime.

[-] SkunkWorkz@lemmy.world 15 points 3 months ago

Tape is cheap and durable if you store it properly. Except the tape drive is expensive af.

Microsoft is working on glass storage. A glass plate can last 10,000 years according to Microsoft. Hopefully that tech will get miniaturized and available to consumers within our lifetimes.

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 8 points 3 months ago

As a former audio engineer in the days where we still used it- tape can rot.

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[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 30 points 3 months ago

To me, this is just another story of the music industry's technical incompetence.

Even in the 1990s, everyone would have known that hard drives were not a long-term archival storage solution. This is like crumpling up a piece of paper, tossing it in the corner, then being upset decades later when your "archival solution" had issues.

[-] iopq@lemmy.world 14 points 3 months ago

The piece of paper is basically much more likely to survive in a corner barring a fire. I have crumpled pieces of paper from 20 years ago. My PATA hard drive... I don't even have a computer with that connector

[-] merc@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

A bunch of paper tossed into a corner could get wet, mouldy, get munched on by rats, etc. But, I know what you mean. Spinning plates full of magnetized bits with a connector technology that only lasts a decade at most is hardly going to be reliable, even if stored under ideal conditions.

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[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 3 months ago

I'm sure they considered anyone telling them they needed to spend money to be a pain in the ass the same way companies don't follow the recommendations of their IT departments.

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[-] vaxhax@lemmy.world 25 points 3 months ago

It's not a bad start though, and how hard would it be for the people who have surviving copies to copy it to "the next best new thing" in 10 years? The problem is of course that sequence would need to be continued on, like a tradition, which is doable as well.

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[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 22 points 3 months ago

how music is so complicated to archive now

??

[-] tunetardis@lemmy.ca 19 points 3 months ago

That's why I back up my data on stone tablets in Cunieform.

Seriously though, if you wanted data to last for centuries, what would be your best bet? Would it be some sort of 3D-printed mechanical storage? At least plastics are generally not biodegradable, though they are photodegradable, so I guess you'd want to stick your archive in a dry cave somewhere?

Or what about this idea of encoding the data in the DNA of some microbe and cutting it loose? What could possibly go wrong?

[-] MonkderVierte@lemmy.ml 12 points 3 months ago

Please stop that, DNA is good for mutations, not for long-term consistency.

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[-] hendrik@palaver.p3x.de 17 points 3 months ago

Well, nothing lasts forever. I'd say distributing them on something that lasts 10+ years is better than doing noting. Otherwise they just get lost, buried in the attic or the next harddrive crash takes them.

[-] Phoenicianpirate@lemm.ee 15 points 3 months ago

I got four HDDs, some are almost 10 years old. They work great but I know that won't be for forever.

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[-] TommySoda@lemmy.world 11 points 3 months ago* (last edited 3 months ago)

In my life I've had several HDD's and SSD's fail on me. None of that shit lasts forever and you would honestly be surprised how often they fail. For huge servers like data centers the average failure rate is between 1% and 2% per year, and sometimes even higher. They literally have to replace hard drives on a daily basis because of failure.

Disk failure is one of the reasons I have copies of all of my important stuff saved to every hard drive on my computer, along with an external just in case. One time my system drive failed and I couldn't save anything because my operating system stopped working. Had to reinstall the OS and do a data recovery. Ended up with a bunch of photos that were corrupted, distorted, or missing half the photo.

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[-] francisfordpoopola@lemmy.world 9 points 3 months ago

Buy Spinrite. It's not perfect but it's the best thing available for drive maintenance and recovery. I have used it for over 10 years. If the drive is dying it'll take forever, but I've recovered data that was nearly gone due to sector loss. It goes down to the bit level BTW. Someday Steve will release v7 .. someday.

[-] n3m37h@sh.itjust.works 7 points 3 months ago

This is the first time I've seen anyone else talk about SpinRite, known about it a long time too

[-] LostXOR@fedia.io 6 points 3 months ago

If your data is really important, you should send it to a reputable data recovery service. Using the drive any more (even with a tool like SpinRite) risks further damage.

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[-] vext01@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 3 months ago

These people haven't heard of zfs then?

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[-] art@lemmy.world 7 points 3 months ago

My system is to duplicate to fresh media once in a while. It's more hands on, but it's the only option I have. My NAS will be cloned to new drives in the next few years.

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this post was submitted on 12 Sep 2024
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