/c/politics basic rules:
(lemmy.world)
Thanks for your work especially on this day as the free world lost the USA.
None of us are as "free" as we believe we are. At the end of the day our politicians are all financed by our wealthiest individuals and corporations (many of which are foreign).
No matter where you are the majority of your domestic politics, your geopolitics — your "national security" — is intrinsically linked to the wealthiest individuals and corporations that engage with your economy. This can happen anywhere, and it will if we do nothing.
P.S. thanks mods!
America stands for freedom, but if you think you're free trying going into a deli and urinating on the cheese - "Anarchy Burger" by The Vandals
I'm not going to make a call for violence, but I want to point out the hypocrisy here. The rich have chosen violence every day of our and their lives, yet we plebes have to be civil about it? Taking the high road hasn't done us any favors, and it's about time we learn from that lesson.
If you are open to the risk, you can start your own server that is federated with Lemmy and such where you can allow whatever you wish. There are guides to this and, supposedly (based on looking to start my own single-user mbin instance a few months ago), it's not so costly
Just with a bit of estimation of the remaining 12% of votes uncounted, Trump is going to beat his 2020 vote record by a couple million, 81 million on the high end and maybe closer to 77 million on the low end. Unlikely, but possible he beats the 2020 all time record set by Biden. Definitely beats his 2020 numbers.
Kamala recently pulled ahead of Hillary's 65 million and Obama's 66 million, she's gonna end up around 71-74 million.
Kamala lost the Popular Vote. In fact she won some blue states by smaller margins then she lost some 'swing' states. Nevada might not even be tight enough to qualify as a swing state this election(needs to be 5% or less, Trump's currently winning by 5.2% meaning it wasn't a swing state), meanwhile Minnesota was won by 3, New Jersey by 4, New Hampshire by 4 and a half, and Maine might be lost we'll see, but those 4 were all swing states as the margin was less than 5%. New Mexico and Virginia came very close(and New Mexico would have been under 5 without RFK Jr dragging Trump down a point).
This also suggests the Electoral College no longer favors Republicans, and is somewhere between neutral and actually favoring Democrats again. 2028 a tight election with a Democrat win could see them lose the PV and win the EC.
I had a ton of 2004 vibes from the start and it looks like that was correct. He is coming back to serve a second term, and YES, this time he won the national electiiion
(Also you can't blame third parties this time, they did horribly nationwide. At worst maybe they tightened up Virginia a bit just through how uniquely bad for Democrats it was there, but on the other hand RFK Jr is the only reason New Mexico didn't crack a sub 5 margin and go into Swing State territory again(Harris won by 5.2 there and RFK got 1 point. No third party means that crosses the 5 point threshold)
- No self posts.
I strongly think this rule should change, it is important we are able to humanize each other, make our own arguments. Self posts are important way to do that. I think some guidelines to keep it constructive and high effort is warranted but an outright ban I'm against.
- No meme/image/shitposting.
I'm fine with this, but maybe a weekly mega thread to blow off steam in would be healthy?
No calls for violence. Full stop.
I understand the legal obligations here. I'll also point out the president elect is openly calling for widespread violence. If some can say "cops should shoot/arrest/deport " that is a call for violence.
Mods, You have a hard, thankless job, so thank you.
There are already communities for discussion and also meme/images.
Hello,
Is it fair to redirect people to !politicaldiscussion@lemmy.world where self-posts are allowed?
Oh, absolutely! I think they do videos too!
Good to know! You could maybe consider adding that in the OP, so that people looking for self-posts would know where to go
I do not care. I do not want every headline that is reported here to be like "TRUMP DID THIS AND PLANS THAG TO FUCK OVER AMERICANS DUH DUH" all the fuck over.
People are upset and they need to be heard. You silencing them just opens the doors to be Trump News 24/7.
Good rules. Good moderation, thanks.
What's a self post?
Making a text only post with no article.
The fact that ML is not banned says we have no standards.
I think, and I can't say since I'm just a mod, but I think .ML gets treated with kid gloves because it's the OG Lemmy.
I think I'm just trying to convince myself.....
But it's not over yet. Lots of votes to be counted still
Don't give yourself false hope on the Presidential. It's terribly unlikely.
Our best hope is the house stays blue and they can be a roadblock for the next two years until the midterms, which is likely what happens.
It's going to be a tiring two years until midterms and four years until we can get rid of him. We're going to have to fight tooth and nail to keep our rights and freedoms, but we can do it. I can only hope America wakes up once again from the nightmare.
Even hope for the House is looking pretty false right now.
Yeah, they'll have free reign to implement all their fascist dreams. The world is fucked, the US just sealed our fate. Dumb fucks.
I mean, there's also hope, however slim, that Biden and Harris say "Fuck no, Trump will not be president again" and exercise some raw power to keep Trump out, or for Harris to engage in the same kind of legal fuckery Trump did. But, of course, Democrats are spineless by nature so neither of those things going to happen in all likelyhood.
E: forgot a space
I'm physically ill by this result, but this isn't an option. You can't save democracy by discarding democracy.
Trump could do it because he's a fascist - he wants to discard democracy. A healthy system would have checked him not just then, but barred him from running again. We haven't had a healthy system in a long time.
Trump could do it because he’s a fascist - he wants to discard democracy. A healthy system would have checked him not just then, but barred him from running again. We haven’t had a healthy system in a long time.
Trump himself isn't fascist. Though he's surrounded by them and I do fear them.
At a minimum, we need to discard useless language. "Fascist" failed to work in this election. Its been overused and/or the Republicans have built up mental defenses against it. It always was a bit of a stretch argument as the NeoNazi group is constantly berated even by Republicans.
The correct word is likely Authoritarian Social Darwinists (which is close to fascism in many important ways, including racism, superiority, smugness, purity of gene pools, etc. etc.). But I'm thinking its time we discarded "Fascist" and seriously moved forward and try to advance our linguistic political tools.
It doesn't matter what you call them, they'll take that and wear it proudly. They have to publicly swear their allegiance to the in-group.
Hillary was right to call them deplorables.
Biden was right to call them garbage.
Godwin was right to call them Nazis.
Everyone was right to call them fascists.
They do not care.
This is a pretty naive take. The remaining dregs that passed for democracy here were extinguished a few hours ago. There's nothing even resembling a democracy left here. The only elections we'll have now will be show elections, if even that. Therefore, definitionally, we can no longer save democracy through democracy.
But if I'm being honest saving democracy in the US isn't really all that high up on my list of priorities at this point. We're facing down an exacerbated Gaza genocide, another in Ukraine, then Moldova, and domestically, the genocide LGBT people in general, and trans women in particular. Not to mention the inevitable murder of Trump's political opponents and journalists critical of his regime. We're pretty firmly into the "any means necessary" zone.
E: minor word choice change to reduce repetition.
E2: Fix typos and spelling errors
Egos as big as Elon, Trump, RFK Jr. and others cannot work together for long.
The infighting will absolutely happen. The reigns of power only allow one grifter to be king above all others.
The Republican Party now needs to reward Crypto, Tech, Military-Industrial complex, Trump's teams, Religious vote and more. It's easier to keep unified before you have power, but inevitably now that the Democrats are defeated.... Their egotistical selves are setting their eyes onto their next prizes.
They will be satisfied with various positions of power for a few months at best. RFK Jr. Really doesn't want to run the CDC, Musk doesn't want to make the bureaucracy efficient. They will grow bored of their positions.
Sure and while they play around, those genocides I mentioned will still happen. And when their regime collapses, the chaos will kill even more people. This must be prevented.
Too late to prevent now.
Democrats refusing to give power now will forever destroy Democracy. The only hope we have is to give power to Trump and hope he doesn't break it too much.
As others noted: it's a one sided risk. Trump doesn't care about the future of Democracy. Democrats do care.
I expect that most Republicans, despite voting for Trump stupidly, also care about Democracy.
We have likely lost not only the electoral college vote this time around, but even the Popular Vote. It's a blowout. There's no excuses on a Democracy perspective.
I am a major Ukraine supporter. I was for Harris and everything. But now I'm worried about far more local issues. This is a resounding defeat of my trust of my fellow Americans, my coworkers, etc etc.
But we are not the ones in power. The election was a blowout in the wrong direction. Even if Jack Smith arrests Trump tomorrow what is that supposed to accomplish??
Too late to prevent now.
Wow, someone more cynical than I am.
Democrats refusing to give power now will forever destroy Democracy.
That's historically not true. Many interim governments do dissolve successfully after fulfilling their purpose. I'd expect such an interim government to last a decade, two tops while the constitution and judiciary is unfucked.
We have likely lost not only the electoral college vote this time around, but even the Popular Vote. It’s a blowout. There’s no excuses on a Democracy perspective.
As I said upchain, democracy really isn't at the top of my priority list right now. Preventing 3-4 additional genocides is.
I expect that most Republicans, despite voting for Trump stupidly, also care about Democracy.
Yeah no. The median republican voter only cares about furthering their hate, and seeing the people hey don't like hurt. Remember "He's hurting the wrong people!"?
I don't think a non-Democracy or otherwise forced interim government can stand today. There's no legal basis and you're basically asking for Biden to just perform a coup and hand the reigns of power to someone.
I mean, I guess I appreciate your gusto but that's not gonna work.
There's rarely, if ever, a legal basis for an interim government. Just like there's no provision in the constitution for replacing it, this is basically how it's done. And honestly I'd rather Biden keep the reigns for a little while at least. Harris is the obvious choice there, but she's a too right wing for my tastes.
You're missing an ego: Putin. He has Kompromat on all of them. See Unger's book American Kompromat.
Look I'm desperate for some cope right now, but the best the left has ever been was in resisting Trump in the streets from 2016 to 2020.
The issue was that after four tiring years of struggle, we handed responsibility over to the electoral process. And as is tradition, the Democrats fucking blew it.
Build back better? what a fucking joke. Pass literally any bill that makes a material impact to people's lives and this election result doesn't happen.
Yeah leftists really aren't going to help here. There will never be a leftist revolution in the US. Hell I doubt there'll ever be a serious leftist political movement at all. The only remaining hope I have is that the democrats will decide that preventing Trump is more important than high-roadism. But even that is an exceedingly slim hope.
I mean, maybe if Harris would have appealed to the left, we would be having a different conversation today. Biden making in roads to the left out him over the top in 2020; Harris blew those bridges up in 2024 to campaign with Liz Cheney.
There is a real left movement in this country that started at occupy Wall Street and has been here ever since. It's not big, but it's sufficient to make important differences here and there. BLM/ antifacsism/ progressivism, all threads of the same strand.
I guess you're probably right, but honestly I'm not sure I can put my faith in a group that can't even hold their nose over an elementary application of the trolley problem.
You just don't get who or why people are advocating for those positions.
Leftists asking for better from the candidate are doing so because they perceive issues like genocide, money in politics as deeply unpopular, and issues like M4A and paid family leave as popular. Your blaming the wrong group.
It's Harris apologists saying you just have to plug your nose this election who lost the game for all of us, because that gave Harris cover for staying out on some deeply unpopular issues.
You (and others, not trying to single you out) think you know what you are doing with your 'trolley problem' perception/ analysis of this issue, but you are wrong to the point of self deception. You might consider why that is.
Your blaming the wrong group.
Multiple groups can be at fault. (As a mostly unrelated aside, if I were to blame a single entity, it would be Rutherford B. Hayes). And TBH, Leftists who failed to hold their nose are probably the least to blame, they're just the last ones in the line of responsibility. Ultimately Harris bears the most responsibility (at least recently) for her failure of a campaign.
You might consider why that is.
Care to enlighten me? I've never been the brightest tool in the shed, so from where I'm sitting it's a pretty easy case of less genocide vs. more genocide.
I think this comment that I offered @Jordan_Lund makes the point well:
https://lemmy.world/comment/13236115
and reposted here:
Its like you are allergic to the plain understanding that how you present this case, is just fucking wrong. No matter how much you wish it was that there were only two choices in this race, thats just not true. You drank the kool-aid. We get it. You see no other options. Other people do. Other people in the world see things differently than you, and clearly, Rashida Tlaib is one of them.
Voters don’t have to vote. You can vote green, or blue, or red or purple. Or you can write in some other name. You can’t force your opinion on the world when your opinion doesn’t match objective reality.
This fantastic world you’ve locked yourself in, its not the real world. Its an opinion that you have (which is fine), but which is not the same as the objective reality, because people actually can (and should, my opinion) vote however they please.
Both sides are NOT the same, one is CLEARLY better than the other for you and everyone else.0I don’t disagree, but you @jordanlund@lemmy.world , are going to have to take responsibility for the fact that this rhetorical approach you are using has done more damage to Harris’ chances than it has convinced anyone that they need to vote Democrat. Its a view point that has been cultivated, selected for across lemmy which is toxic, not based in reality, and counter productive to the actual goals you suppose to have. Everyone that thinks the way you do has been convinced. Now what are you going to do about the people who don’t think the way you do? How are you going to get the voters for whom a genocide is unacceptable? Its too late at this point, but what I’m showing you is how this this toxic culture divided the party and its ability
Blue MAGA/ Blue no matter who; they were always going to vote Democrat. You don’t need to work on them. They’re just followers and setting your rhetoric up to convince them is a waste of time, because you’ve already got their votes. Its the people for whom certain issues are a bridge too far that need to be convinced. And when you offer an argument that “they have no choice but to do what you want them to”, do you think that is going to convince them. When you abuse them and gaslight them, how convincing do you think they’ll find that?
I’m of the opinion that you can’t ask a Palestinian or Muslim voter to vote Democrat this year, since Democrats don’t even see them as people. They wouldn’t even allow a Muslim 3 minutes on stage to make the case to other Muslims why they should vote for Harris. What Tlaib is doing here is probably the right move politically if she wants to hold her seat. Her job is to represent her constituents, not the party, and if she thinks this is the right thing to do, I support her in that.
My argument, is that Democrats have left a lane wide open, and from a purely strategic/ cynical view of things, it would be stupid for some-one/ anyone to not just hop in and take that lane. I think we see Talib, Omar, maybe Porter, any other progressives who’ve been ratfucked by the DNC/ DCCC take that lane as independents. Its a blue ocean/ wide open opportunity that rarely shows itself in politics.If the Democrats are going to keep heading to the right like Harris has, I expect more progressive Independents to start appearing, striking back to the approach that Bernie Sanders used to great effect in the senate over his tenure.
If you can't put out the effort to understand why people think the things that they do, if you can't empathize with people you don't agree with, you'll never understand them sufficiently to change their minds.
Hooh boy that''s a lotta text, but I think I more or less get what you're getting at, so I'm going to have to try real hard not to breach the civility rules here.
I get that the Gaza genocide is terrible, I get the feeling of powerlessness over it, I really do, I'm feeling it right now, I also get wanting to do something about it, but in regards to this particular election, there was nothing that could be done, especially not by the time Biden dropped. The options in this election were simple: More genocide, or less genocide. There wasn't a no genocide option, unfortunately. If there was, I have full confidence that option would've won. But there wasn't. Harris was never going to change her stance. So: More genocide or less. If one didn't vote? More genocide. If one voted third party? More genocide. If, god forbid, one voted for trump? Believe it or not, more genocide. The only way to get less genocide was to vote for Harris. After that is a long and hard road: Running progressive local and eventually state candidates, organizing community awareness events, protests, etc. all with the express purpose of redirecting democrats to the left.
You should go back and read the whole thread that this comment originated from. The other responses in that thread break down precisely why your rhetorical approach
Harris was never going to change her stance.
Because she felt no pressure to do so. She had apologists here, there, everywhere saying precisely what you are saying right now. That gave her the cover she needed to feel like she didn't have to move on this issue. And it didn't work.
You really should read the entire thread I linked, because you are doing precisely what @jordanlund@lemmy.world did in that thread. And if you are not curious as to why this rhetorical approach failed (when people like me were telling you, @Jordan, everyone, that this approach would fail), then you are part of the very problem you suppose to solve.
Every one who can be convinced by the "both-sidesing" of the issue you choose to do has been convinced. Now what are you going to do to convince those for whom genocide was a bridge too far? If you can't understand people for whom the rhetorical approach that worked on you, didn't work on them, and continue to refuse to even try and understand them, how do you expect to change their minds?
Now what are you going to do to convince those for whom genocide was a bridge too far?
[...]how do you expect to change their minds?
I'm not. Because, generally speaking, people don't really change their minds. They just look to confirm their own biases. Its the big reason republicans have such strong support despite being the worst party by every metric except hate. It's also the reason Harris was never going to back down on her support for Israel. Well that and AIPAC, with them around even I wouldn't wholly denounce Israel no matter how much I'd like to. Besides if genocide is "a bridge too far," then why, pray tell, do they support more genocide?
I’m not. Because, generally speaking, people don’t really change their minds. They just look to confirm their own biases.
Well then I would argue, that by offering the rhetoric you did, you were never really interested in winning this election through the use of this rhetorical technique. This kind of bad-faith approach (whether its acknowledged or not), is what lost the Democrats this election. If you aren't actually trying to change anyone's mind with that point, then why are you making it? Who do you expect it to work on? It seems to me that its mostly a virtue signal; an effort to wash your hands of responsibility.
Democrats fundamental thesis this election cycle was "Trump bad and or worse". It's now in the books that this approach to rhetoric lost them the election. You can't continue to pretend it was in good faith.
If you aren’t actually trying to change anyone’s mind with that point, then why are you making it?
Honestly I often wonder that my self. Well, I know the answer in this particular instance of me, in this thread. I saw something I had an opinion on, so I shared it. The ensuing "argument" is basically more of the same, with the added bonus of being a sort of emotional pressure release valve.
But in general, why do we (as human beings) bother with the verbal arguments and rhetorical sparring? People changing their minds on something is rare, so logically speaking it's a waste of time. Some sort of emotional fulfillment? Vain hope? Because the alternative is violence and we're supposed to be better than that? I certainly don't know.
I'm using you as an example, so don't take this overly personal, but I think you owe yourself, and if or any one else reading this, made the argument that you are relying on here, they owe this community some serious introspection.
I've been trying to communicate to this for the community for literally months, that the rhetorical approach that they are insisting on is/ was/ and has now been documented, to have done serious damage to the best shot we had at stopping Trump. Providing cover and excuses for bad Democratic candidates and policies does material damage to the chances of Democrats to win at the polls because it selects for less popular, more vulnerable, weaker Democrats. If you are not working to hold Democrats accountable and trying to defend them from criticism, this election loss is on you.
As I mentioned upchain, multiple groups can be at fault, and chronologically the buck ended with the voters. The voters failed to hold their noses and work with the lesser of two evils, so now we're stuck with the greater one until that orange fatass croaks and we have to deal with the post-collapse chaos.
Again and again and again: you have an intentional block that you are keeping in place that is preventing you from understanding why this happened. I just want you to notice it at this point. Its already done enough damage to mortally wound the democratic project. Just please notice this blind spot of yours.
this post was submitted on 06 Nov 2024
142 points (86.6% liked)
politics
19239 readers
1970 users here now
Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!
Rules:
- Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.
Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.
Example:
- Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
- Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
- No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive. Similarly, if you see posts along these lines, do not engage. Report them, block them, and live a happier life than they do. We see too many slapfights that boil down to "Mom! He's bugging me!" and "I'm not touching you!" Going forward, slapfights will result in removed comments and temp bans to cool off.
- Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
- No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning
We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.
All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.
That's all the rules!
Civic Links
• Congressional Awards Program
• Library of Congress Legislative Resources
• U.S. House of Representatives
Partnered Communities:
• News
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS