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How did this western societal idea of how a man should act, and what emotions are appropriate to show come about? How far back in western history does this idea of limiting men’s ability to emote honestly go? And how did these ideas change over time?

It’s interesting to me because I feel like these traditional and limited roles that western society puts on men (and women) are just that traditions. That it’s just something “that we do because past generations did them.” So my curiosity is why did past generations have these societal rules in place? was there a legitimate reason for it, did having men be almost robotic even in the privacy of his home and around his family have some necessary and important reason? If so is that still necessary today?

Edit: had this posted on c/asklemmy but it was suggested this was a better place for this question.

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[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 51 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 22 hours ago)

Short answer: It’s complicated.

Medium answer: As above, but in Western culture, this dynamic was reinforced by the advent of private property, which created a need to protect assets. While forms of patriarchy exist without private property, the patriarchy we recognize today is theorized to have been shaped by a perceived “need” for a dominant figure to hold and maintain property. Many factors have contributed to this dominance, but the factors of stoicism and emotional repression you describe are a significant facet tied to enforcing the male role as protector of property.

Long answer: As above, and as Simone de Beauvoir explains in The Second Sex, which is ~1000 pages, these roles evolved into patriarchal systems that have shaped society for centuries. Feminism as a whole is dedicated to unraveling these complexities, and the points above are only a broad overview of a much larger, nuanced topic.

Layman’s answer for those without time to read massive works of analysis: If you haven’t, I highly recommend reading bell hooks’ The Will to Change. It’s available as a free PDF on the Internet Archive. The book is under 200 pages and written to be accessible to non-academics, so feel free to skim and jump between chapters as suits your curiosity. The introduction and chapter 2 may be especially helpful for understanding this topic! 😁

[-] slingstone@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago

Just read the first section of The Will to Change. As a man, it's fascinating and enlightening to see a feminist deal with men and masculinity rather than dismiss them.

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 2 points 7 hours ago

bell hooks is truly a blessing! she’s certainly not the first to do so, but she’s the most forefront and accessible of feminist voices to attend to the needs and experiences of men under patriarchy.

[-] 1984@lemmy.today 2 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

It makes sense that the physically stronger gender becomes the protector, yes. Who else?

The perceived need you talk about was very real. Women would get raped or killed with no protection.

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 3 points 8 hours ago

Women would get raped or killed

By whom? 🤔

And yes it does make sense that the physically stronger sex becomes the protector. Feminists will agree with you on this.

But they will take immediate issue with your supposition that men therefore need to be emotionally repressed in order to protect women from… most often, themselves.

[-] 1984@lemmy.today 1 points 4 hours ago

I don't know where that comes from. Emotionally repressed? I agree men doesn't need to be emotionally repressed.

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 1 points 4 hours ago

The perceived need you talk about was very real.

Well the perceived need I talk about had to do with emotional repression, so looks like you badly misunderstood.

[-] 1984@lemmy.today 0 points 3 hours ago

I meant the need to be protected by men.

[-] witty_username@feddit.nl 4 points 22 hours ago

Thanks for the book, will give it a read

[-] Zachariah@lemmy.world 3 points 19 hours ago

happy cake day

[-] FourPacketsOfPeanuts@lemmy.world 28 points 22 hours ago* (last edited 20 hours ago)

Theres restraint and then there's also suppression. You can find encouragements to restrain oneselves going back to proverbs in the bible or the ideals in Roman society.

Although controlling yourself was seen as advantageous in general, men were not expected to supress their emotions, quite the opposite. It was fine to be angry or vengeful or lustful or in love etc just as long as it was directed at someone lower in the social hierarchy.

Christianity probably had a hand in supressing those outlets, though looking at history is doubtful that the majority of the population were 'pious' like that.

Where it seems to have taken a notable turn is during the Victorian era. The social expectations of 'proper' behaviour started to constrain the outlets men were 'allowed' to have. Not just on the battlefield, where controlled marching into musket fire was more important than ever, being stoic in everyday life was becoming an ideal to restrain vice. Prostitution was becoming more taboo, as was gambling, and violence in general.. at least in "civilised" society. Which in turn was possibly driven by the industrial revolution moving everyone to cities where living close together made these "sin"s more visibly awful.

Warfare had always been awful, but there was honour in man to man struggle. What got far worse from the 1700s on was needing an army to not crumble in the face of impersonal volleys of musket fire and canister shot from batteries of canon half a mile away. The era of feats of strength was over. Now you could get horribly mangled at random for standing in the wrong place. This was the origin of the British "stiff upper lip", the ability to meet misfortune with indifference. The beginning of widespread supression of emotions.

From the Victoria era, add in half a century of industrialised warfare, the grimness of which had never been seen before. And by the 50s/60s society was dealing with very broken men who had been traumatised and given no better advice than "be a man and suck it up". Which has disastrous consequences, not just for men but also domestic violence and abuse or neglect where things tipped over.

The hippie movement rediscovered men's 'softness' but wasn't practical. The eighties was practical - created an outlet in the deregulated business world of working ruthlessly and making personal riches - but it lacked "wellbeing".

It's really only in the millennial and gen z generations that this historical trauma is distant enough and society's ideals have changed enough that we can even begin to have public conversations about men going to therapy or crying on a friend. This would have been sappy even in the 90s.

[-] canadaduane@lemmy.ca 7 points 17 hours ago

Thanks for posting this. I am 4th gen since my family (i.e. great grandfather) served in a war.

I think generations that have not gone through war have a hard time recognizing war-induced inter-generational trauma, since it's often the case that men who went through that hell didn't want to bring it home and talk about it, for various reasons (e.g. PTSD, shame, thoughtfulness).

Their behaviors might have caused kids and grand-kids to suffer (e.g. physical abuse, emotional abuse), but those kids might not understand why their dad, grandpa, etc. behaved the way he did, so maybe the source of the problem gets buried and forgotten.

[-] GoofSchmoofer@lemmy.world 3 points 15 hours ago

Yes, your description is part of the genesis of my question. Where did this all come from because without knowing the origin of why western culture stared disallowing some important and strong emotions to be displayed by men we can strive to change it.

[-] oce@jlai.lu 12 points 21 hours ago* (last edited 21 hours ago)

Are stupid non researched hypothesis allowed? I had in my mind: maybe those roles come from times when life was more violent, so having a strength advantage due to biology was an obvious way to hold power and impose rules that benefit your group/gender. I feel this somehow connects to emotional behaviors that may be required for war and politics, such as not showing your weaknesses. Then you have centuries of cultural development, such as religions, that created layers of justification for the social order that benefited the people in power, even when the physical strength advantage is not relevant anymore, and that’s what we consider tradition.
Reality is probably more complicated.
Is patriarchy and the emotional difference really specific to Western society, if we compare to Arabic, Indian or Chinese traditional cultures, for example?

[-] spujb@lemmy.cafe 7 points 20 hours ago

your hypothesis isn’t stupid and in fact i think it lines up quite nicely with quite a few theories put forward by feminist scholars, including the one i summarized in my own response to this post. violence and the maintenance of control is a big element tied to most models of patriarchal masculinity :) you got good instincts

[-] HubertManne@moist.catsweat.com 2 points 19 hours ago

What you describe sounds like me but not most men I know. Im not an outwardly emotional man but most to me are sorta gregarious.

[-] Kaboom@reddthat.com 3 points 22 hours ago

Man, you need a full on historian for this, but I'll try.

Iirc, the whole stoicism thing started in Ancient Greece, but there's probably earlier instances of it. It waned and waxed throughout the centuries, growing stronger sometimes and growing weaker others. The current way of it is basically from the protestant way of thinking combined with various wars, like WW1. I seriously hope you go reading stuff outside of Lemmy, I haven't studied this stuff in over a decade.

Now, for a non-western perspective, the east has a similar concept in Bhuddism, and it's just as old as western stoicism.

Iirc, there was also some Indian tribe (Cherokee?) that also made a big deal of it. I can't speak much on it.

For the record, stoicism is not about being a robot, it's about being emotional stable. There's a massive difference.

[-] InquisitiveApathy@lemm.ee 5 points 21 hours ago

You're conflating Patriarchal gender roles with Stoicism. They are not the same thing and Stoicism is not what OP is asking about.

[-] Kaboom@reddthat.com 1 points 18 hours ago

OP literally asked "what emotions are appropriate to show come about? How far back in western history does this idea of limiting men’s ability to emote honestly go"

That sounds a lot like stoicism to me.

[-] GoofSchmoofer@lemmy.world 4 points 15 hours ago

The reason I used robotic instead of stoic in my initial post is that I see stoicism as less about refraining from emotions but learning how to control emotions. That is recognize that you are human and you will have a wide variety of emotions, and you should have all of those emotions. But with stoicism the goal is to recognize the emotion you are having and not allow it to control you.

You can be mad or even fucking piss off angry but you should still have that higher, separate thought that control the emotion and allow it to come out in ways that don't create a negative impact on yourself and others.

My post was more about where in history did the western culture evolve to punish men from having any emotion beyond anger, ambivalence and to a limited degree humor.

[-] froh42@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago

When my life turned upside down and a lot of shit happened I got interested in Stoicism to the point I even read a bit of Seneca.

I never felt it as a way to be emotionless or a way to hide or suppress emotions , but rather as a way to just accept my them and "yeah, I see and acknowledge I feel like crap, no need to go crazy about it" (in my situation). It brought an understanding to me that not everything that happens is about me personally and I stop fighting what I can't change to put my focus where I can have an influence.

Warning: this is not a definition of stoicism, but what I took away from it for myself.

[-] LookBehindYouNowAndThen@lemmy.world -1 points 22 hours ago

OP, this user is a straight-up fascist so you may look to their answer for some pseudohistory and an example of fragile masculinity, but I wouldn't believe anything they claim is true.

[-] kitnaht@lemmy.world 9 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 19 hours ago)

This is Reddit-tier behavior. Love how you don't talk about any of his reply, or have any rebuttals - but literally just go through his history and attack him personally instead of focusing on what was said.

[-] LookBehindYouNowAndThen@lemmy.world 0 points 19 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

I told OP that it was pseudohistorical nonsense, get off your high horse.

Dude constantly posts about how racist he is and you expect me to leave him be? Fuck off. This place isn't gonna be a Nazi bar like Reddit.

[-] kitnaht@lemmy.world 1 points 18 hours ago

Go touch grass dude. When you're just following people around harassing them on the internet, it's time to go out and get some fresh air.

[-] LookBehindYouNowAndThen@lemmy.world 0 points 18 hours ago* (last edited 18 hours ago)

Oh no, some lillyliver thinks I need to go outside.

What ever will I do? Excuse me, I must retire to my fainting couch.

But I don't think I'll play nice with the fascists when I see them around, so block me if that bothers you.

[-] Kaboom@reddthat.com 2 points 18 hours ago

And this user is a liar and a creep. He makes shit up about other people because they disagree with him., and then he follows them around because he got obsessed with them.

And for the record, I added a disclaimer that he needs to do his own research outside of lemmy.

[-] LookBehindYouNowAndThen@lemmy.world -1 points 18 hours ago

You're so self-absorbed that you think I follow you?

That's adorable.

this post was submitted on 27 Dec 2024
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