Just to share some climate change context, as of 2020, natural gas usage by buildings (mostly for heating) accounted for 54% of community-wide emissions in Toronto. Transportation only accounted for 33%, so reducing our use of natural gas for heating is something Canada needs majorly to focus on if we don't want to burn.
To me, it's absolutely crazy that AC units are even still marketed. An air conditioner is just a heat pump that only work in one direction (cooling). All that is needed to allow it to work for both heating and cooling is one extra valve. If you're going to install a heat pump (in the form of an air conditioner) and a furnace anyway, you might as well let the heat pump provide heating as well. That way, your furnace is only required on the coldest nights. For most of the year, the heat pump is sufficient.
With the caveat that at lower outdoor temperatures (think below about -20C), heat pumps become increasingly ineffective at heating up indoor spaces.
For places that reach those temperatures in winter (most of the prairies and northern Ontario) you also need supplemental heating of some sort.
Well, everywhere in Canada outside of maybe Vancouver does dip deep below -20 once in a while. But for the "Quebec City to Windsor corridor" (which is where about half of Canada lives eg GTA) you theoretically should be able to get away with some electric space heaters as a backup heating source. They'd be expensive to run but it would likely only be for a few days per year.
Heat pumps often have the option of a heater strip that lets it work at those temperatures.
It would be unwise to not have a backup heat source if you're installing a heat pump in Canada. Some may claim their balance point is well into the -20s, but relying on a system that cannot provide adequate heat in extreme cold events could get rather dangerous.
As for the offsetting NG furnaces, it's unlikely someone would remove the furnace when the heat pump can easily be installed in the air handler, in line with the furnace, and a 'dual-fuel' thermostat used to control the switch point.
Here in Saskatchewan, NG is also significantly cheaper than electricity. So, with our high heating demands, those who have access to NG often choose that. I have a heat pump and electric furnace backup, but I'm in a net-zero house designed for significantly lower energy use, which is definitely an outlier to the typical terribly designed homes built to minimum code.
It would be unwise to not have a backup heat source if you’re installing a heat pump in Canada.
As always, in all things, solicit advice from a pro. Conditions will vary wildly between Vancouver, Regina, StJohns and Sarnia.
My new heat pump works perfectly fine down to -30C, but it's a very new model. And for the few times a year it gets that bad, use a space heater.
the few times a year it gets that bad
Cries in Edmontonian
Every time the carbon tax goes up, the gap between electric and natural gas closes.
But heat pumps are much more efficient than electric heating and a much cheaper source of heat.
Here in Saskatchewan, NG is also significantly cheaper than electricity. So, with our high heating demands, those who have access to NG often choose that.
It makes sense, because they burn gas to make the electricity. I understand a heat pump can create a lot more heat than just an element would, though, so it still comes out cheaper.
It would be unwise to not have a backup heat source if you’re installing a heat pump in Canada. Some may claim their balance point is well into the -20s, but relying on a system that cannot provide adequate heat in extreme cold events could get rather dangerous.
I hear there's work being done to make more cold-resistant ones. For myself, I wonder about the ground-loop systems. They're more expensive, but I don't know by how much.
Running heat pump isn't cheaper than NG in Saskatchewan. Natural gas is about 9x cheaper than electricity for the same amount of energy. A heat pump also doesn't create heat, it only moves it. It can be over 300% efficient, but natural gas is still cheaper to heat the same space.
Ground loop (geothermal) is significantly more expensive to install and also needs to be designed properly or it will remove the available heat from the ground in just a decade.
needs to be designed properly or it will remove the available heat from the ground in just a decade.
Well, yeah, any HVAC system needs to be properly designed.
I mean you're in SK, that's kind of an extreme case. Most Canadians live in parts of the country with more moderate weather, where it only goes below -20 on the absolute coldest night of the year, if at all. I mean "backup" could just mean a couple of 1500 watt space heaters in the closet if you find the pump isn't cutting it - yes you'll burn through your heating bill but it's going to be for maybe a couple of nights tops.
Ottawa has weeks at a time where it's below -20? I think the GTA is similar. The past two winters here in NS we've had to have our baseboard heaters on in addition to our heat pumps multiple times through the winters because it was much colder than -20?
Good job Technology Connections.
Air conditioners literally are heat pumps.
Technically, but they're only one way.
The ones sold as "heat pumps" can operate both directions-- cool the outside world/heat your home in winter.
Huh. I had wondered whether air conditioners could be made reversible. Neat.
Another commenter claims all you need is one more valve. I suspect the design changes are slightly more involved than that, but in principle it's certainly doable.
We had one professionally installed in our previous rural house. It was great most of the time, only really an issue when it hit -25C. However, we didn't use it as our primary heat...that was propane.
I appreciate that the article notes that households on the prairies and other colder areas often retain their gas furnaces the coldest periods - particularly as the electricity costs to run the heat pump in those periods outweigh the cost of gas.
I took the lesson to be that it’s best not to wait until your gas furnace has to be replaced but rather to replace the air conditioner and save the remaining life of the furnace for the deep cold periods when it’s energy inefficient and more expensive to use the heat pump. It would be great to see some good analysis/modelling of this.
A friend of mine just had a new heat pump/furnace combo installed. It has a single controller for the whole system (is my understanding), so the heat pump will run normally and the furnace will kick in if needed. I can't recall the details of when exactly the furnace kicks in.
That is how mine works. You can also get a rig that will slightly heat the air inside the heat pump to let it operate at much lower temperatures than normal. Supposedly more efficient than using the furnace.
I support progress on heat pumps and really wanted one.
I live in Calgary and wanted AC, had to get a new heater and water heater. We priced out the heat pump, and because of our cold winters would still need a furnace on top of the heat pump. Total quote was $26,000 and we still had to figure out how to fit it all to code in our tiny mechanical room. Getting quotes was like pulling teeth, the HVAC industry seems to hate them here.
Instead we got a new gas furnace, AC, gas water heater, auto water shut off valve with sensors and even the whole house pipes replaced for $14,000 total. The heater is so efficient that it will pay for itself in 3 years compared to the 20 year old one that was in here.
I don't have an analysis of electricity heat pump costs vs gas if we also had a heat pump. But even with the greener homes rebate it was not viable to get a heat pump yet. Maybe next time?
Yeah. Heat pumps are pretty shitty in Alberta. Even in Calgary with our chinooks, the cold snaps hurt them.
I've never felt more stupid in my life, but i only just realized that the "AC unit" in my condo can also heat in the winter
I also have electric baseboard heaters. Which is more efficient? The heat pump? Or the baseboard heaters? I'm going to try using the heat pump this winter
Baseboard heating is 100% efficient but heat pumps can be up to 400% efficient. Depending on model and outside temperature. This is because hear pump is not generating heat its just moving it from one place to another. In AC mode from inside to outside of house and in heating mode from outside to inside.
Is it actually a heat pump, or just an AC with a heating element as well. That's what mine is.
Heat pumps are 300% to 500% efficient
IOW: you get more heat energy out of a heat pump than the electrical energy put in.
Electric heaters are only 100% efficient
Except for cost, is there any reason for AC to exist instead of heat pump?
Anybody tried the new window-AC ones? My house has central air but we've a converted attic loft room that's not part of the duct system. I'm tempted to pick up one of those LG window-AC heatpumps that are basically "window AC that can also heat" and see how that goes for year-round climate control. I mean, I'd have to insulate the crap out of its mounting with plywood and foam because normal window-AC mounting is drafty as hell.
I have some friends who have had all kinds of trouble with their heat pump, but it might have been mostly due to how it was originally installed
What's going on Canada?
🍁 Meta
🗺️ Provinces / Territories
🏙️ Cities / Local Communities
Sorted alphabetically by city name.
🏒 Sports
Hockey
Football (NFL): incomplete
Football (CFL): incomplete
Baseball
Basketball
Soccer
💻 Schools / Universities
Sorted by province, then by total full-time enrolment.
💵 Finance, Shopping, Sales
🗣️ Politics
🍁 Social / Culture
Rules
Reminder that the rules for lemmy.ca also apply here. See the sidebar on the homepage: lemmy.ca