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this post was submitted on 12 Oct 2023
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People have been coming up with theories about this forever, from perspectives and time periods as diverse as Aristotle, St. Augustine, Gandhi, and Trotsky. You put a lot of very difficult questions in your post, but you didn't put forth a criteria for what "justified" means to you. I think you're going to need to interrogate that before being able to even think about any of these questions. For example, is violence justified by better outcomes, or by some absolute individual right to fight your oppressor? Is justification a question of morality, legality, tactical value, or something entirely different?
I know this lies at the core of the question, simply because “justification” is such a complex concept on its own. I asked the question because I can’t for the life of me get even remotely close to an answer because the different theories of morality and justice all are founded in sound logic, even though they contradict one another.
I want to hear what other people think, if they’ve made up their mind, and why they think what they think.
At the end of the day, you will still have to answer the root question(s) for yourself to yourself in order to resolve it for you. I admire your open-mindedness, but I worry that the post here is your way to avoid answering the deeper questions.
Maybe I am, but I don’t think I am, avoiding answering the question. I think there is no universal answer. Having been raised protestant and pushed away from organized religion by the obstinate idiocy that is the way so many people believe in steadfast rules of morality that have no room for exceptions (i.e. abortion is ALWAYS bad), I have come to realize there are things and concepts of value to humanity that are constantly at odds with each other. Regardless, the value of those things cannot be quantified by scalar values, and therefore cannot be directly compared. For example, human life is valuable, but what about when human lives are directly at odds with one another, like a fetus in the womb of a person who doesn’t have access to enough resources to take care of a baby? The correct course of action to take depends on an infinite number of factors, and those factors are undeniably affected by whichever person perceives them. I believe this to be the reason that the Bible itself contains directions for how, and describes at least one situation in which, to perform an abortion.
I don’t believe that morality is relative, I believe there are things and concepts that will always have value and importance to humanity, but I believe that the value of those things and concepts is relative given each scenario.
Putting it this way, the answer to my question about justifying violence becomes a question of the way the situation that could lead to violence is perceived by each person in the situation. So there is no objective way to determine the answer. And I hate that, but it does bring me some peace. We have to do the best we can with what we have. If our best is bad, then so be it, but we can prepare ourselves for certain situations so our best can be better than it would be otherwise.
I have no idea if any of what I just said made any sense, but it helped me clarify my thoughts. Maybe it’ll help someone else.
From what you're saying, it seems to me that you are well on your way to building your own view. It does sound like you are thinking it through and not putting it off.
Word. Personally, I really like St. Augustine's writings, which is a weird thing for an atheist and socialist living 1600 years later to say. I got really into his stuff during the pandemic for some reason. I also recommend some of Trotsky's writing about war, especially in the run-up to WW1 while they were trying to hold the second international together. Lots of really wonderful stuff about international solidarity, and the role of socialists in a time of capitalist war, that I think would do people good to read today, 100 years later. He also wrote some stuff once he was in power after WW1 that I personally found less cool, but interesting in a "no one can reign innocently" way.