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Before and after satellite images show destruction in Gaza
(edition.cnn.com)
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this post was submitted on 26 Oct 2023
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No I'm gonna think they lied, cause I don't think there is any way that Israel would have survived if half of the people in Gaza (1 million) were hamas militants or suppliers.
Tighten the border like they fucking should have done when they got intel that hamas was planning something. Don't let em through and they won't kill civilians.
I dislike war crimes yeah. I also think that it is a waste of time to condemn Nat Turner's crimes, or the ANC's crimes, or Algeria's crimes. Revolutions are violent, innocent people die, horrific crimes are committed. But you don't condemn the revolutionaries, you condemn the oppressor for forcing them to turn to these awful means.
https://www.cnn.com/middleeast/live-news/israel-hamas-war-gaza-10-11-23/h_b44251fc62ee96a79fcdb942c6aaad97
Well alright. I prefer to go by information, personally.
Heeey, wait a moment, earlier you were against Israeli Settlements in the West Bank (Which may I remind you, Israeli claims that the settlements are for security), and then you want to strengthen the border around Gaza? How do you expect them to strengthen it? Put turrets on all the walls? Armed squads? That's an entire border, an insane amount of resources compared to the checkpoint system that they use in the West Bank.
But that's how Israel came to be. Palestine and the Arab League had wars about this and lost to Israeli forces.
Sorry, I should've been more clear. Do you have a reputable source? CNN has a bad history of misinformation and bias. After the whole hospital bullshit, I only read neutral or reputable sources.
Ok, that's fine. Israel is still commiting horrific war crimes based on information, but the extent is what is in question.
Settler colonialism is a cancer and should be eradicated from this planet. It is illegal by international law. Israel can claim they are for whatever it wants, it is still settler colonialism. If you can defend Israel's actions in the west bank, I don't think this discussion is going to be productive.
Sucks to suck. Israel has billions of dollars of funding annually and mandatory conscription. They can step the fuck up and protect their own civilians without committing war crimes.
Israel came to be through colonialism. Thus any action against them is revolutionary. Just because Israel crushed the revolutionary action doesn't make Israel the revolutionary force.
The source is the Palestinian Red Crescent Society, which is part of the International Red Cross. CNN is simply restating it.
As is Hamas. No one is a saint in this conflict, unfortunately.
You do realise that means Palestine is also going to be eradicated, right? The Jews had claim to the land before the Ottomans.
It's not a matter of resources; it's a matter of logistics. How will you protect a wall that spans 40km, close to Israeli civilians and Gaza citizens, 24/7 for an indefinite amount of time against a force that will only grow bigger and bigger and more and more violent?
If it's by attrition, that's what they've been trying, and it doesn't work when some terrorists can sneak through and slaughter innocents.
Palestine also came to be through colonialism. Regardless, Israel won both wars, it is their claim--Palestine fought and lost. Funnily enough, if the Arab League never declared war, they'd have their land.
Can you find any other reputable sources reporting it? Neutral ones. If it's the international red cross, there should already be a UN report.
I think it is. We're two westerners, we have zero stakes in what happens, there's nothing either of can do but discuss what's happening. Plenty of disagreements, of course, that's healthy, but there shouldn't be any aggression going on, right?
100% agree. No saints in war.
The Canaanites were there first. Both Palestinian Jews and Arabs descended from the Canaanites, which in turn likely descended from neolithic people who lived in the area. If you're going to use the historical claim stuff from hundreds of years ago, a secular Palestinian state would be the only state with a right to exist in that area.
170k active duty, 465k reservists. 635,000 people in all, for 40,000 meters of border. Israel is rich enough to supply them with food and weapons, so really they can create fortified positions behind the wall and then fill it with people. And they've also got drones and jets, so it would be pretty easy to airstrike anyone who breached the border wall. The important thing would be for them to make the fortifications outside of rock throwing range so they have no excuse to kill innocent civilians.
Might does not make right. Russia invaded Crimea and won, does that make it rightfully theirs? If China invaded Taiwan, would that make it rightfully theirs? Just because Nat Turner and John Brown lost doesn't mean they should have just said "oh well" and kept slavery. The Native Americans losing against the US didn't justify forcing them onto reservations.
Reuters wrote about it, that's the least biased news website I can think of. https://12ft.io/proxy?q=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.reuters.com%2Fworld%2Fmiddle-east%2Fgaza-rescue-workers-scared-exhausted-under-israels-air-strikes-2023-10-13%2F
I mean idk, I do get angry at some of this stuff. And I think that's fine, cause there is a genocide going on and innocent civilians on both sides are suffering so badly because Israel couldn't keep themselves from colonizing. You should get angry at this.
But if you're open to change your mind, I'm happy to continue talking about this.
... You want to spend a minimum of 200 million USD to airstrike breaches? That's grossly unrealistic.
But Russia didn't declare war when they invaded Crimea, likewise they didn't when it came to Ukraine. For Taiwan, it wouldn't be rightfully theirs, but they will still control it. But you see, that brings us back to the loop, where the Jews have historic claim to the land before Palestine but lost a war and were taken away from the land. That's why the two-state solution was really the only peaceful method of resolution, which the Arabs didn't accept.
Don't know who those people are.
Thank you! That is very disgusting behaviour, and Israel should do better. But again, as usual, Hamas did it first, killing paramedics during the massacre. Not that it's justified, it is not. Gaza, Israel--no one is innocent here.
What do you think I need to change my mind on?
There's a genocide, yes, it ticks enough of the ten stages to be one. Likewise, Gaza wishes to genocide Israel. However, Palestine, specifically Gaza, put itself in a difficult situation with poor choices like trying to overthrow neighbouring governments of friendly/neutral nations.
See I think we speak from Western privilege, where we can voice our opinions on these matters, but ultimately, we have no power and no input; we don't live there, and we don't experience the terror both groups feel and the hatred they have for one another. We can feel sadness, who wouldn't? But I think Westerners should shut up and just let what happens, happen, the land has been fought over for millennia, and it has nothing but death to show for it, will it stop?
If the West needs to get involved, at least accept refugees who are in favour of secularism, specifically the oppressed women and the children.
No they didn't. I wrote this in my other comment. Palestinians have the same historical claim as Israelis, if not better because Palestinians have lived there pretty continuously while a ton of Israelis, especially settlers, are from Europe and the US (born there). So if Israel wins it from Palestinians, it isn't rightfully theirs. If the Gaza militia's goals were to
Yeah? The US gives them billions of dollars per year, and just gave them more aid. Its time for them to stop using that to vaporize children.
Nat Turner and John Brown led slave revolts in the southern US before the Civil War. Both of them lost and were executed. Nat Turner's revolution in particular was very brutal and included killing children. When they lost their revolutions, it didn't make slavery all of a sudden OK.
There are a few problems with the two state solution. One, Palestinians have lived on this land for as far back as they can remember, you can't not allow them to return to their ancestral homes and then expect them to agree to that. Two, Israel has shown it does not care about where it is or isn't allowed to do stuff. As evidenced by the west bank. It would never respect the border. A secular one state solution is the only solution that would work at this point.
IMO there's a difference between indiscriminately shooting at everyone, and deliberately aiming an airstrike at medics. It isn't a big difference, but its there. Also you said "as usual, Hamas did it first." Are you referring to killing women, children, and other civilians, and committing other horrific acts? Because Israel was pretty much founded on that. They did much worse during the Nakba.
Maybe a few people want that, but Hamas wants a 2 state solution, and PIJ, the PFLP, and the DFLP have stated their goal is the destruction of the Israeli state, not the genocide of it's people. And the PFLP and DFLP are secular.
Hell PIJ is the most extremist one, and its leader has said he has "no problems living with Jewish people... We have lived together in peace for centuries. And if Netanyahu were to ask if we can live together in one state, I would say to him: "If we have exactly the same rights as Jews to come to all of Palestine. If Khaled Meshaal and Ramadan Shalah can come whenever they want, and visit Haifa, and buy a home in Herzliyah if they want, then we can have a new language, and dialogue is possible."" (according to wikipedia, this was part of an interview)
Nah it was actually peaceful under the Ottomans, who treated Jews Christians and Muslims pretty equally. There was pretty much just a tax for Christians and Jews. The "land has always been fought over" thing makes the situation sound hopeless, but really the British just fucked up the peace. As usual. Fuck the British.
Sure but black september was in 1970, the average age in Gaza is 18.
The west already is involved. I'm from the US. We send Israel billions of dollars every year to bomb children. If the west is gonna help solve this, we need to use that money to twist Israel's arm and force them to cooperate, but we won't because we like our forward operating base in the middle east.
I mean the first comment I responded to was you implying that Israel has no other options but commit horrific war crimes, that's the main thing I want to change your mind on.
Think we should just focus on one just issue/topic?
Yeah, I'm happy to talk about any of them so you can pick
Can we talk about defence? Particularly logistics and costs? Military isn't cheap.
Yeah I know its not cheap, but with all of the money the us is giving Israel, they should be able to afford it, or they can increase taxes, or idk take out a loan or something. The point is the cost isn't a valid reason to commit war crimes imo.
Well, the point is how can Israel, or the US, or any country, really--convince Hamas to cease its terrorism? There were decent attempts with the Oslo records, but then one terrorist attack, Palestine swearing for Israel's destruction and then Israel back onto the offensive.
I think the only way to achieve peace is for Israel to pull settlers out of the west bank, give palestinians a right of return, and pay all palestinians monetary reparations. I think the best solution is to establish one secular state, where everyone has equal rights. You cannot defeat this by airstriking people, or launching a ground invasion. It's like that one twitter user said, "I'm not a political expert but if you eliminated hamas but killed my whole family in the process my first move would be to start hamas 2"
You have to think about it from the perspective of Palestinians. They feel incredibly angry, and rightfully so. They're subject to apartheid in the west bank and they're stuck in an open air prison in Gaza. This makes them lash out in incredibly violent ways, because Israel has shown them that peaceful methods do not work. Obviously the way you stop this is by ending the apartheid and prison.
Israel says that the West Bank settlers are used for security checkpoints that keep terrorists from attacking out of the West Bank, considering the lower rate of terrorist attacks, it seems to work.
Though I agree. Israel should pull out of the West Bank entirely, though there is that risk of more terrorist attacks.
The UN tried in two separate accounts of making Jerasuelum a neutral secular state, both times Israel was all for it, and both times Palestine was against it, even declaring war they were against it that much. Mind you, Palestine didn't have a government back then, so it was terrorists declaring war.
Also I dislike the whole open-air prison sentiment when it came about from Palestinian Terrorists own doing, attacking their neighbours and trying to overthrow the local governments there.
I'm pretty sure the lower terrorist attacks is because of Fatah being in control instead of Hamas in the west bank. But either way, if crimes against humanity are how you prevent terrorism, u gotta reconsider lol. Glad we agree that settlers have to go. I think that would actually be one of the most significant steps towards ending Hamas.
I would be interested in reading more about the deals for a secular Jerusalem, I don't know much about that. I guess I could see how islamic fundamentalists would be opposed, but I have a feeling they have reasons other than just religion.
Regarding Gaza being an open air prison, it is, that's pretty much a fact. I'm not calling it a concentration camp or a ghetto, even though I think it might be one. Millions of innocent Palestinians are locked in there, along with some terrorists. There was a blockade even before Hamas took power, but now no Gazan can even import things like concrete. If there are a group of people that are locked into an area and they aren't allowed to leave by air land or sea, that area is a prison.
Just read the history of the Israeli-Palestine conflict on Wikipedia
I'm also curious, how much have you seen so far of the conflict? Particularly this year? Have you watched the massacre videos and Israel's response yet? I think watching footage of the massacre is a must-have, considering it's one of the most violent terrorist attacks of recent years.
I've seen a lot of violence on both sides that I wish I hadn't seen.
I looked through that wikipedia page, and most of the stuff about Jerusalem seems to be either both sides stopping negotiations, or more recently Israel wanting Palestinians to make concessions that they shouldn't have to make.
What were a few scenes that stuck with you?
There was one of a some vile Hamas pigs shooting a young woman in a car and dragging her body out while cheering. There was another of a child with his face burned off by white phosphorus or some other horrific weapon right next to his crying father. And there was one video from a few years ago, where a monster from the IDF snipes a child through a fence and treats it like a game. Those fucked me up.
I haven't seen that white phosphorus one. Able to DM a link at all?
Probably what fucked me up was a few different videos. Hamas slaughtering all of the civilians on the highways, inside their homes, recording themselves killing the men and taking the women and children. The parade video you mentioned. The beheading with a hoe video was also quite extreme.
And there was the video of a father carrying the tattered remains of his child, kinda wandering aimlessly. The airstrike footage also does me in too, just the idea of not knowing that you're about to blow up from something you can't even see.
I'd rather not have to scroll through the gore videos on telegram to find it again, sorry.