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Israel built bunker under Shifa hospital, ex-Israeli PM says
(www.newsweek.com)
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this post was submitted on 23 Nov 2023
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No, he's saying Israel built it for Israel's purposes. He's claiming that Hamas has been using it (presumably since Israel pulled out of Gaza in '05). But Israel using structures it built as casus belli to blow up a hospital looks really bad on Israel's part.
I think any reason to blow up a hospital makes Israel look bad, but if I misunderstood what he meant, fair enough.
The justification is that Hamas uses hospitals for their purposes and they have bunkers and tunnels there. Why would it matter who build the bunkers? IDF is trying to destroy Hamas who uses hospital (with bunkers). Per this article the bunkers were built for hospital medical use.
I'm sure Israel would love people to think they built bunkers under a hospital for medical use.
Why else would they build them? This was before Hamas came to power, when Israel was occupying Gaza permanently.
To store munitions? That's what bunkers are for. Or do you think Israel wouldn't store munitions in Gaza?
So Israel did not use bunkers to store weapons but Hamas did. Seems a little propagandistic to me.
Well the crux here is that it's not a bunker but a basement. Of course the Israeli government likes the translation into 'bunker' a little bit better
Why would they do it under hospital? I understand the ugly logic of Hamas doing this, but Israel would not make any sense. There was no reporting of them doing that, ever.
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte Remember, it's Israel claiming what those bunkers are used for and by whom, and they are well known to lie.
Generally speaking, never trust anyone engaged in ethnic cleansing.
Unfortunately, I trust Hamas even less. However, there was an interview of a doctor who worked at this hospital, who did confirm that Hamas was using it.
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte The question is was the doctor under duress by Israeli forces? It's not like Israel plays it straight, or has any reason to. Israel has used human shields, Israel has attacked and is currently attacking Palestinians in the West B. ank where Hamas isn't, Israel even violated the ceasefire first. So let's not pretend that they are an honest broker, because they aren't
No, he was not under duress. He was given interview in UK.
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte Citation?
Sorry, don’t remember where. I think it was posted in fediverse with a link.
EDIT: not the original source, but I found it by googling:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-12770641/amp/gaza-al-shifa-hospital-british-doctor-claim-hamas-warning.html
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte "a British doctor"
Umm, yeah that sounds _totally_ reputable /s
Are you really this naive?
So, no amount of video, showing bunkers and doctor statements is satisfactory for you. What does it take for you to change mind? Any amount of evidence exist to convince you that known terrorist group that used and uses human shield used the hospital? Or do you live in the world where you just decide what to believe because you like it, and ignore everything else staring right in your face?
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte your problem is that no matter how you want to cut it, Israel is operating in the wrong from the start. They are the occupation force, resisting an occupation is LEGAL, and any nation under that circumstance would do the exact same thing.
That said, was Hamas's actions against civilians on October 7th a terrorist attack, yes.
Has Israel engaged in terrorism against Palestinian civilians for decades, YES
Has Israel engaged in ethnic cleansing, YES
I never said that resisting occupation is illegal. But we are talking about Hamas and sector Gaza here. There was no occupation of sector Gaza from 2005-ish.
You are saying that there is ethnic cleansing that happen in sector Gaza for years. Did you check the population of sector Gaza? The only ethnic cleansing that happened there was when Israel removed Jewish settlements. So let’s not through big scary words like “ethnic cleansing” when simple check of reality on the ground is totally against the meaning of the word. That includes today’s war where IDF goal is removing Hamas. Yes, there are civilian casualties - it happens in a war especially when Hamas uses civilian shield.
Now, with respect of Israel engaging “terrorism”, aren’t you confusing things? Was it, again, Hamas that was promised to destroy Israel and was shooting rockets into Israel and doing other terrorist acts? What Israel could possibly do when your neighbor shoots rockets at you with promise to destroy you? What? Again, Gaza Strip was NOT occupied. West Bank was, but would you de-occupy the West Bank when it might go the way Gaza Strip went with Hamas coming to power and following terrorist attacks for years?
Also, if it was Israel goal to do ethnic cleansing of sector Gaza at any point, than it would have done it - no Hamas resistance would be enough.
But let me put forward a simple truth, which you seem to ignore - there is no path to peace with Hamas in power. None. For the sake of Palestinians and everyone in the region, it must be removed. If you do not want the repeat of the same situation for both Israelites and Palestinian people with casualties in civilian population on both sides, Hamas has to go. There is just no alternative. No matter what crimes who did in the past - the path to the peace does not include Hamas staying in power.
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte No amount of Israeli propaganda will sway me, because having a bunker isn't illegal, especially considering the nature of Israeli attacks against Palestinians for DECADES! Worse, the pictures are showing you are completely empty. You are completely taking and occupation military's propaganda as gospel. That is the definition of naive.
It is not just bunker, it is consistent picture from operation of Hamas for years, and a witness statements, which is published in non-Israel sources.
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte witness statements as given to the IDF and you took as gospel.
Are you being serious right now? I mean really?
Thought experiment for you, what is the difference between a Hamas bunker and a civilian shelter? Do you really believe Israel will honestly tell you? Remember, we're talking about the same state sponsored terrorists who have literally bombed civilian convoys in the safe corridors they established
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte which of these bodies did Israel tell you were Hamas?
https://www.instagram.com/reel/C0CAnS6NjJE/?igshid=ODhhZWM5NmIwOQ==
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte That's fair, they're terrorists. That said, Israel by every measure is worse
Was than Hamas? The one whose goal is to “run Jews to the sea”? The one who started all this by purportedly killing civilians? Really?
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte You say that as we're literally watching the Israeli conduct ethnic cleansing for the past several decades of the Palestinian people. So yes demonstrable the Israeli are worse.
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte https://www.hrw.org/news/2023/08/28/west-bank-spike-israeli-killings-palestinian-children
I mean literally months before October 7th the Israeli were murdering Palestinian children in the West Bank... where Hamas isn't. You might want to catch up on what's really going on in the Occupied territories
Yes, a mob of people, that includes 17 y. o. “children” throwing stones and Molotov cocktails at armed people/vehicles and being shot in response (and how military police would know that they are 17 and not 18?) is TOTALY equivalent or even worse than what Hamas did when purposely hunting and cruelly killing more than 1000 civilians. Do you even try thinking before you post?
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte
"Mahmoud stood by the side of a road, waiting for the sounds of shooting in the distance to stop, and was not holding any weapon or projectile, a witness said and a security-camera video that Human Rights Watch reviewed showed. After the distant shooting had stopped and the Israeli forces were withdrawing, a single shot fired from an Israeli military vehicle roughly 100 meters away struck Mahmoud, the witness said. No Palestinian fighters were in the area"
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte Next time, read the whole article - gets worse when you realize the Israeli have are the invaders
And then it gets worse than that
https://www.hrw.org/report/2009/03/25/rain-fire/israels-unlawful-use-white-phosphorus-gaza
Israel is truly a terrorist nation no matter how you charitable you are
Today you are watching war, in which IDF is hunting Hamas for attacking Israel and killing more than 1000 people. Hamas uses civilians as human shields that leads to additional deaths that otherwise would happen in any war. After Hamas killed those civilians, Israel had no other alternative but to react to this. Hamas has main objectives to destroy Israel and as long mg as it exists, it will try to repeat the massacres again and again, and there would be no peace and Palestinian people are and will be suffering because of that. Put the blame where it is - on the terrorist organizations that uses their own citizens as human shields in order to create reaction from people like you. And the more you react the more Hamas will use human shields for its perposes - because it’s working and Palestinians be damned. Only complete elimination of Hamas can have chance of peace.
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte That was a long winded way of saying that you just started paying attention after Oct 7th and are entirely ignorant of what atrocities Israel committed against the Palestinians prior to that date.
You are attempting to justify Israeli ethnic cleansing that has been occurring since LONG before October 7th, which has cost thousands of Palestinian lives and maimed even more. The Israeli aren't the victims, they are the invaders by their own admission
I was critical of Israel (and still am) for what it was doing, especially for settlements in occupied territories. However, none of that can in any way excuse what Hamas did. I also think that the right wing government in Israel will be gone by normal democratic election process. No such luck with Hamas. Hamas can be only forcefully removed.
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte You are literally defending and excusing terrorism innocent civilians like this
https://amp.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/03/israel
@MxM111 @jeena @FlyingSquid @grte Except the right wing, government of Israel was put in place by a democratic process. Light criticism of Israel, doesn't excuse israel's criminal, terroristic conduct that's been going on for decades. Decades!
You're basically trying to whitewash what Israel has done and that's what's disgusting. Israel's right wing government, is worse than Hamas, murdered and maimed far more, for longer than just one day.
I mean, in Barak's mind he's probably attempting to justify the bombing. In a sane person's eyes it looks really bad.
Maybe that's the problem. The so-called justification just went over my head. Because it's fucking nuts. How many innocent people who were in need of hospital care did they kill? Including children? And then claim it's because Hamas uses human shields...
Well tbf they haven't blown it up (yet)