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this post was submitted on 20 Dec 2023
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I agree that Congress is not on the right side of history here, but he's not entirely wrong. Few people have nuanced views that say Israel and Hamas are bad, and instead try to oversimplify to give people a side to root for.
It's a clusterfuck of politics, war crimes, and ancient grudges, and Palestine is stuck between.
I think there are more than a few people who feel that Israel and Hamas are both bad actors here.
I hope you're right, because that hasn't been my experience.
They get downvoted or banned and tend to post less and less because of it. It's one of those social media echo chamber things.
72% of Palestinians say the October 7th attack was justified. It's just just a few Hamas fighters hiding among completely innocent civilians. Most of them actively want the violence to continue, just not aimed at them.
But most isn't all, and it's hard to blame an eight year old who has been told his whole life that his greatest calling is to sacrifice himself to kill some Jews while he sees an IDF soldier shooting out his brother's kneecap.
https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/poll-shows-palestinians-back-oct-7-attack-israel-support-hamas-rises-2023-12-14/
There are no good guys here. I'd be happy if we reduced or stopped Israel funding. But that's not gonna make me fly a Palestinian flag while cheering for them like a sports team.
Those of us who feel like both are to blame tend to be outshouted by the "I ALWAYS STAND WITH ISRAEL NO MATTER WHAT THEY DO" and the "HAMAS ARE JUST FREEDOM FIGHTERS SO ANYTHING THEY DO IS JUSTIFIED" groups. And if we speak up to point out that both groups have issues, we get attacked by both groups for not being on a side and especially for not being on their side.
One of the big problems with the Middle East is that it's a messy situation and people like simple narratives. They don't want to hear a hundred plus years of attacks, revenge attacks, generational trauma, etc. That's not easy to resolve. Instead, people want to know that A is always good and B is always bad. That's nice and simple and easy to fix. You just eliminate the bad people and all is well.
Sadly, the real world is rarely so black and white.
As an Irish person I can say with some experience that what Hamas is doing is not justified but it is pretty much inevitable. And unless Israel are really going to continue their genocide, all they've done is perpetuate this inevitability.
I feel you, I should not have to lead every criticism of Israel with a criticism of Hamas. I can criticize the fucking government. I don’t think I need to condemn terrorist that everyone knows are already terrorist.
I expect more from a fucking government than I do of Terrorists.
But if you just want to do the same stuff that they’re doing, you’re not a good guy so don’t call yourself. Don’t try to pretend to be one just admit that you are what you are, the bad guys, not every situation has good guys
The reverse is true. Every criticism of Hamas should be led with a criticism of Israel.
The Palestinians have tried every form of peaceful protest which led to them getting shot by Israel. Hamas is a reaction to Israel's deeds. That reaction did not appear out of thin air for no reason.
Saying there are two evils in this situation is a milquetoast take. Hamas is morally gray. Israel is the only real evil party here.
No, no, they lost all of their great area when they attack a Music festival full of civilians and kidnapped and killed children.
That is 100% sold in the morally black area
There is no evidence of Hamas intentionally killing any children. There is plenty of evidence of Hamas sparing children. Almost all of the kids were likely killed by the IDF shelling the Kibbutzes.
The music festival wasn't even supposed to be there anymore but was extended so that was just an unlucky coincidence. Hamas leadership stated that this was not planned and wasn't their goal. Their targets were military bases.
Also there were armed soldiers at the festival with guns.
The IDF however does plans to kill children in a children's hospital that are getting treated from having the leg blown off from the IDF bombing their house. THAT is not a coincidence. They do this with full knowledge, satalite imagery and guided missiles.
They still kidnapped babies friend, that is their rubicon.
They didn't kill the baby like israel does though.
Also if they didn't take the baby there was a big risk of the baby being bombed by israeli hellfire missles or shot by israeli tanks so you could say Hamas saved the baby.
Sadly the IDF really wanted to kill that baby so they shot a rocket at it when it was in Gaza and managed to kill it. Hamas really did everything they could to save it.
Oh my bad, I didn’t realize you were trolling.
Have a good one
You can stop shilling for the IDF already.
Yeah brother i absolutely love the IDF.
Bye troll
It’s just super fucking annoying that all of our politicians are stuck in zero-sum tribal thinking, and cannot comprehend that most rational people think Hamas AND the Israeli government are complete psychos, and that the vast majority of Palestinian and Israeli civilians (specifically excluding “settlers”, who are violent, racist, theocratic, nationalist pieces of shit) are simply caught in the middle.
Weird, we only seem to meme about Israel...
I don't use tiktok as I think it makes us dumber but I imagine the ratio is relatively similar.
How many tik toks have you seen about the long history of peace offerings Hamas has refused?
How many have you seen of Israelis dumping water down the drain to make fun of the Palestinians they don’t have any?
I’ve seen more than one and I don’t use TikTok.
Zero.
I have no idea where one would even find one but it sounds like the algorithms are working exactly as designed; exposing you to content that makes you think the worst of the other side so as to trigger your outrage and clicks.
If Mike Tyson fought a 9 year old for calling him a bitch...
Yeah, they're both in the wrong. But post fight it wouldn't be rational to say they're both at equally at fault.
Especially if Mike didn't stop with that kid and just beat up every child in the room
I get what you're saying, but I think that analogy doesn't really capture the gravity of what happened. Both of them have committed egregious war crimes, which means people aren't just beat up, they're dead. Israel has certainly committed an order of magnitude more, but I don't think it does the victims justice to imply Israel is the big, strong adult who merely got kicked in the shins by Hamas.
I think your analogy could be improved if you changed the 9yo vs Mike Tyson to the 9yo's adult cousin who fights Mike Tyson for the family honor but also abuses the 9yo for fun. Still doesn't capture the gravity of the number of innocent people who have died, but it at least represents the parties involved a bit better.
Is Israel the child abuser in your scenario?
No, Hamas is the abuser in his scenario.
Palestine is the abused child then, and Israel abuses the child too
I didn't write the metaphor. I just explained what it meant, when following the logical structure within
You can be on the side of civilians. Pretty simple actually
I agree. I don't see other people (other than a relative few on the Fediverse) who see it that way, because they want a clear villain to defeat.
It's a pretty simple stance to take, you know the "don't go around killing/maiming/terrorizing/raping random civilians" stance. It shouldn't be hard to say "treat people with respect". No matter if they are friend, enemy, or bystander.
What if I told you there are citizens in Israel who have been hurt by the conflict
Eye for an eye. The violence has to stop somewhere. Maybe before the death toll hits a million?
Dont care, they shouldn't be occupying someone else land
See, this is the shit. Who are the occupiers? Palestine is a remnant of the Ottoman empire. Before that it was the Byzantines or the Romans and just about every other empire in the area in human history. Before Rome , it was the Jews. Then they lost the war and were banished from the region and scattered. It's the major reason there is NO one right answer. People going to a concert don't deserve to be brutally raped and murdered JUST as much as people trying to survive in an open air prison don't deserve to be indiscriminately bombed. That shit has been a dumpster fire for 3000 years, now all in the pursuit of power and clout. We can give a damn about people not in power, AKA the civilians on both sides.
Clearly, Israeli blood isn't pure enough to inhabit the land, they'll always be occupiers. /s
Judea is Jewish land.
Nope, my gods are older, and better. And they said that all lands are my lands.
You all need to get off my land.
My god beat up your gods and now your land is mine because my god said so.
Islam and Judaism both have the same god…. Aren’t they both from sons of Abraham or something.
Yeah, well my god kicked his ass too.
The Bible isn't a historical document.
What are you talking about?
where are you from?
Find judea on the map
It's called Israel now, the Israelis have fought quite a few wars over this and won every time.
Not really they lost a few and gave up land a few times. Hezbollah kicked israel's ass last time.
So far, I've seen far more people claiming someone else is defending Hamas than I've seen people actually defending them.