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this post was submitted on 15 Jan 2024
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Asking a bunch of non-religious people is nothing but a circle jerk.
People believe in religion for a variety of reasons. I believe in what I believe in because I've had personal experiences, and because it gives me a way to be better than I am.
Asking a religious person won't get you to the truth though.
Why do you believe?
Because God is real!
How do you know this?
I just feel it in my heart!
Right, but can you prove that he exists
I don't need to prove it I have faith and know that he exists!
Ok, so you admit you don't have any proof it's just faith?
No I have proof!
What is it?
You can't see it because you haven't opened your heart to the lord!
So you don't have proof?
I do!
What is it?
You need to have faith!
Right, but do you have anything that can be objectively verified without faith?
Sure! In the Bible it says...
I'm gonna stop you right there, I don't believe anything in the Bible you can't use an anonymous book to prove your supernatural claims.
Clearly you are just a sinner that doesn't want the love of God!
That's an obvious strawman, my dude.
It's literally their arguments in a nutshell. It's either Faith or My book says. They can't have anything else otherwise they'd have produced it over the past 2000 years.
It's the same people believing in Ghosts. You're not going to find some Ghost believer Einstein that'll blow your mind with his reasoning on why he believes in ghosts...
Way to go, reducing the worldview of literally every religious person on the planet that is or has ever been alive.
It's simply a strawman. Some people might have argued like youdo, but those are simply buffoons and/or assholes.
If you have a better argument please share. I've heard your response a million times too.
"Oh only stupid people believe on faith alone!"
Ok so you have actual proof of God and why believe?
And before too long we'll back to faith or the Bible says.
I don't know if you are religious and want to actually defend your faith or just trying to white knight on here.
Either way please provide proof of God to I'm all ears.
I'm not religious and you're constantly misrepresenting or simply reducing the reasons why people have faith. That way it's easier for you to attack them. That's what a strawman is.
Religion is an alive feature of humanity and what was consensus in e.g. christian faith 400 years ago has been replaced within the church and the faith of the individual believers. Religion isn't about "proof of existence" anymore, since it stopped being about answering questions that have been answered by science in the meantime.
Contemporary religion is about philosophy and ethics. Claiming that religion can't answer questions it's not trying to answer doesn't proove that religion is moot.
It's like someone asking why some people like coffee and you can't understand why people like coffee, because if you can't survive on coffee alone. The whole premise is outdated.
I guess you're thinking about american evangelical lunatics and substitute all of spirituality with them. Christianity (and radical islamism) is some weird, imperialist perversion of faith. Forcing other people to boin your religion, or else is not the only mode, spirituality is expressed in the world.
When you're speaking in such a condescending manner of religious people when you actually mean evangelical lunatics just makes you seem arrogant and keeps you from actually learning anything about your fellow human beings.
I'm not religious and you're constantly misrepresenting or simply reducing the reasons why people have faith. That way it's easier for you to attack them. That's what a strawman is.
Religion is an alive feature of humanity and what was consensus in e.g. christian faith 400 years ago has been replaced within the church and the faith of the individual believers. Religion isn't about "proof of existence" anymore, since it stopped being about answering questions that have been answered by science in the meantime.
Contemporary religion is about philosophy and ethics. Claiming that religion can't answer questions it's not trying to answer doesn't proove that religion is moot.
It's like someone asking why some people like coffee and you can't understand why people like coffee, because if you can't survive on coffee alone. The whole premise is outdated.
I guess you're thinking about american evangelical lunatics and substitute all of spirituality with them. Christianity (and radical islamism) is some weird, imperialist perversion of faith. Forcing other people to boin your religion, or else is not the only mode, spirituality is expressed in the world.
When you're speaking in such a condescending manner of religious people when you actually mean evangelical lunatics just makes you seem arrogant and keeps you from actually learning anything about your fellow human beings.
That's a very long post, to say "I have no proof..."
I reiterate. If what I'm claiming their reasons are is wrong, give me the reasoning that they are using that I am missing. Stop telling me I'm wrong and show that I am wrong by providing a reason to believe in God that's not faith or the Bible says.
This is irrelevant to the discussion and also just your personal opinion.
Yea, pretty sure the majority of religious people are going to disagree with you. Religious believers believe in a God and a supernatural realm. What you are saying is simply wrong for the majority of religious followers.
Horrific analogy. Coffee is real and we can both touch and taste it. Also, coffee doesn't command us to stone gays or see women as second class citizens. Just horrific analogy.
I'm not talking about any religion in particular. They all share the same tenants that I'm attacking here. Belief without good reason.
For some reason you feel that me speaking the truth and demanding evidence for religious belief is condescending. When you claim to have all the answers via your imaginary friend and you seek to impose your views on others, I'm going to call you out on it.
This will be my last reply unless your next reply actually provides evidence, as demanded at the beginning of this thread. Otherwise have a great day.
Yeah. I rejected your command and didnt aim to proof anything.
Umm... No, it's neither? I was explaining how you're asking the wrong question which religion doesn't aim to answer.
I can't. It's faith. Faith is the reason to believe in a god. Never claimed anything different.
You're just pulling stuff out of your ass that you can't possibly have any data to. I've had productive discussions with people who studied theology.
Yeah, didn't think that you'd get it, tbh. I was trying to explain that you're making a cathegorical error by demanding proof of a god. Separate your domains of inquire, my dude.
Bullshit. You're dunking on abrahamic religions ("stone gays") and use these to extrapolate to any religion. You have no idea about paganism, buddhism, sikh, shintoism, etc.
What is the "truth" you're supposedly speaking? That there is no scientific proof that something supernatural exists? Wow. What a well of wisdom you are. Did you know that you can be a secular buddhist?
You're confusing christianity (and maybe islam) with every other religion again. Judaism doesn't have missionaries. Neither do hundreds of other religions.
Don't threaten re with a good time.
I'm not religious and you're constantly misrepresenting or simply reducing the reasons why people have faith. That way it's easier for you to attack them. That's what a strawman is.
Religion is an alive feature of humanity and what was consensus in e.g. christian faith 400 years ago has been replaced within the church and the faith of the individual believers. Religion isn't about "proof of existence" anymore, since it stopped being about answering questions that have been answered by science in the meantime.
Contemporary religion is about philosophy and ethics. Claiming that religion can't answer questions it's not trying to answer doesn't proove that religion is moot.
It's like someone asking why some people like coffee and you can't understand why people like coffee, because if you can't survive on coffee alone. The whole premise is outdated.
I guess you're thinking about american evangelical lunatics and substitute all of spirituality with them. Christianity (and radical islamism) is some weird, imperialist perversion of faith. Forcing other people to boin your religion, or else is not the only mode, spirituality is expressed in the world.
When you're speaking in such a condescending manner of religious people when you actually mean evangelical lunatics just makes you seem arrogant and keeps you from actually learning anything about your fellow human beings.
Having welcomed into my home and talked to quite a number of people preaching door to door (and having even participated in an organised discussion between Physics Degree pupils and a preacher of some Baptist church) I can confirm it's invariably a logic chain that is either circular or ends up in some supposedly "truth" about which there can be no questioning (aka an axiom) the most basic one being "it says so in the Bible".
Either that or it's some poor old ladies who really can't string much of a logic chain of though (it's pretty much direct to "it says so in this book").
And it's all perfectly acceptable in one's Personal Sphere. It's just not an actual argument to justify anything outside the Theological and Personal Spheres, such as, for example, having the Law impose one's Morality on others or having one's country managed in one way rather than a different way.
For me Religion is absolutelly fine as long as it stops at the boundary of the religious person's life and choices, and does not go into shaping other people's life and choices: believers can feel free to try and convert others so that they shape their own life and choices the same way, just not to force their own morality on others.
First of all, none of those questions except the first ask why they believe, and I've never heard a person of faith answer that way.
If you enter into a conversation with the intent of attacking, you shouldn't be surprised you don't get good answers.
Everyone believes in something that they can't objectively prove, even if it's just the love of their family. It gives our lives meaning.
Well you should meet more people of faith.
But sure, tell me what they give you as reasons? I'd love to hear their proof that won't be some version of faith or the Bible says.
Let's hear it.
You are confusing reasons with proof. Most believe because they choose to. Because believing in God gives them meaning and purpose, and a drive to be better, to do better. And because they have had personal experiences that lead them towards belief.
The proof for them is in the effects that faith has had on them. "By their fruits" and all that. Not far different to the "proofs" of dark matter.
Though it's very ironic that you stereotype people of faith, and think I'm the one who needs to meet more of them.
Alright, so I was right you have nothing other than "faith".
I am asking you to provide any evidence for God that I can independently verify.
Faith or how things make you feel are irrelevant. There are people who believe in Goku and like how it makes them feel when they are shooting Kamehamehas... That doesn't make it real.
You jumped into this conversation train unprepared. I've been arguing, reading, discussing and debating religion for decades. I've seen it all. God has been shrinking for the past 2000 years.
I'm not even going to touch your dark matter comment because you are also incredibly ignorant on that subject given that you have referenced it in this context.
I never tried to prove God to you. Trying to prove the existence of God is a foolish undertaking. I, quite frankly, don't care what you believe. I've only tried to point out to you that people have plenty of reasons to believe in God that science can't provide.
You making ignorant ad hominem attacks doesn't make your bigotry any less transparent. It's only a comment on you that you've ostensibly spent so much time discussing things that are close to people's hearts without developing a shred of empathy or understanding.
You don't get to force me into the discussion you want to have by trying to bully me. Your opinion isn't going to bait me. I'm comfortable with having made the point I wanted to make.
Fair enough, so you also are unable to provide any reason. You seem to think that getting angry and insulting me will somehow magically count as having made a point on the original topic.
No worries, I didn't expect you to be able to provide anything, because better people than you have tried and failed over the last 2 millenia.
Were did they "insult" you?