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this post was submitted on 27 Mar 2024
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I hope everyone uses the following buzz-words when discussing this with conservatives, moderates, centrists, etc.:
"I mean I'm for individual freedom as much as the next guy, so that's why I don't think it's right to have government intrude on an individual's rights to their own body."
"I thought Republicans wanted small government? Why are they forcing government in the doctor's office with me and my doctor?"
"I thought Republicans were all about 'my house my rules,' — why are they so concerned about an unconscious parasite that is getting free rent from my body? That fetus is a squatter I can evict whenever I want!"
Identify the double-standard in conservative values.
Legit people need to start doing this. I've been saying it for years.
'I'm a true American patriot, I'm not gonna let the government tell me or my fiancee what I can and can't do with my body. Stop being a commy' said to an anti abortion republican with an American flag. I also call them snowflakes.
It works with all the anti-LGBTQ stuff, too:
"I'm a rugged individualist, which is why I think people should be able to identify and call themselves whatever they want!"
"As a freedom lover, I see no difference between respecting someone preferring to be called Josh over Joshua, and someone preferring different pronouns. Doesn't 'ffect me none.... After all, it's just about showing respect to your good neighbor."
Good neighbor reminded me, it also works for religion if you're talking to those types.
'the lord said love thy neighbor and something about throwing stones, fuck you for being a bigot'.
The trick ive caught on to is to be nonconfrontational, nonthreatening, and try and get in good with them first. The conservatives i talk to these days are other exploited poors from my work. They like me, and i def play into being eccentric/nonconforming which resounds well with these individualism loving individuals. So then i just frame any of these sorts of issues you highlighted from that angle.
Its... not something theyre ever prepared for.
Another tip is to present as some sort of radical centrist, regardless of how much of a far left heathen u may in actuality be.
I had very good luck actually convincing christians that supporting LBGT rights was a christian activity. But that was back in the early 2000's and they were a bit more reasonable back then and actually willing to think. Basically, I would get them to pull the God doesn't make mistakes card and that people are being tested. This is when I'd tell them that is likely true but they are the one being tested not the LGBT person.
Thats what im talking about! I dont like this whole, if ur a conservative u must just be predisposed to be an asshole thing. Theyre up against 50+ years of very concerted propaganda. The fact that u could make headway in the 2000s, or me making any gains now shows just how much effort it takes to keep them with their heads in the sand.
I harp on the point about keeping these dialogues open so long as theyre not framed the way conservatives imagine, bc that world view can be shaken. And while u prolly will lose many battles, u can shift the cultural conversation this way every time u have it. U can reframe the focus on establishing a culture based on kindness and mutual aid. They might not be convinced, but if their grounds are shaken, u will loosen things up for the next generation they try to groom on the whole. For one, they wont be able to claim so easily that all these leftists they hear about are out to get them.
Ooh I love the “don’t be a commie” addition. We all know how desperately those snowflake conservatives want to be part of the in-group. That shit will make their heads hurt.
It's not really about swaying them, but swaying everyone else listening in.
This is how right-wing propaganda has been so effective. Fox News & affiliates literally promote brainwashing to have the crazy uncles memorize soundbite talking-points to project at Thanksgiving Dinners and so forth across America.
lol this astroturfing troll is trying SO hard to incite violence among the left.
Okay whatever you say, buddy. Just finish college before you start your revolution, mmkay?
Oh, and after you, Mr. 420 lmao.
I think u forgot to ask him if hes heard about our Lord and savior, Linux Mint.
lol no disrespect to Linux users but I don't even use it so he's even that much more off the mark. Such a weird insult haha.
Im fighting so hard to not just reply with,
Have you heard about our Lord and savior, Linux Mint? :p
Maybe the ones on the internet. The ones in my workplace backtrack on making fun of queer folk when u tell them ur friends with trans ppl and call it nonconformity.
we need fast change and we need it now.
I agree. Change is faster than no change, and change is easier to enact when the dicks in charge arent trying to criminalize half the countrys existence
We need change period, we can't afford to be picky about what kind.
Yea I don't debate them online and even in person I don't really debate them more so just respond once calling them out using their terms and then I just move on while calling them snowflakes.
which changes nothing. you want to watch the world burn or would you like to help save it?
I help save it in other ways. Not gonna waste braincells on these people.
YouGov surveyed folks who changed their minds about abortion.
Unfortunately, that's not very helpful for convincing people to change their minds. All of these read as "patting myself on the back because now I'm enlightened to the truth." And that's fine, and good, but unhelpful as a debate tool.
Uteran immigrant.
Debate doesn't change people's minds, that's not what it's for.
Or rather, it does, but that takes months to years.
If you're dreaming of delivering a sick, 360 no-scope bullet point to a conservative that gets them to finally see the other side, you're playing the wrong game.
Using their own language against them confuses them. Confused people think more. That's the whole point of this.
If you're debating Tucker Carlson, there's pretty much nothing you can do but beat him down rhetorically; he's paid not to understand you.
If you're debating your neighbor, getting him to think about abortion bans as government overreach is actually a successful play.
Debate is not for convincing ur opponent, in these cases. The successes ive had w conservatives came from doing the opposite: convincing them that the view im trying to convert them towards is one theyve already held.
Debating them is for the spectators. If ur debating a conservative and no one is around for it, ur just playing into their game and u will get riled up and lose.
I would say that if you're in a 1-on-1 with someone, it's just that your goals are different.
You can convince people of things, especially little things, but the higher stakes subjects are difficult because there are strongly felt emotions that go with them.
When you're debating conservatives into viewing trans people as "just fine, actually," you're not really debating whether puberty blockers are safe. You're debating their own feelings of disgust. Or, their insecurity over their own place in society.
So, with that in mind, you'll get less purchase from them with statistics, and you might get a lot more by treating them like they're crazy for thinking any of this is a big deal. Like, they've got their whole "you should be racist too" pitch, and none of it is working on you. This can make them feel, for lack of a better term, weak, and that's useful to you.
And even then, you have to realize that this is a long process. Emotions are not rational, and they will come up again and again and again, and worse, this person is probably member to communities whose sole purpose is to stoke the fires of these feelings---it's difficult.
But anyway, that's a long-winded way of agreeing with you, I think. If you can connect something you believe to something they do (the fear of a 1984 government that'll tell them they can't use some fertilizer, maybe), you'll probably have at least a slightly easier time getting them to listen.
Yeah, i think that is a long winded way of largely agreeing with me xD i especially like, "this is a long process. Emotions are not rational"
Its easier if u can dance this tango with em over long stretches of time. Ive really gotten conservatives to agree with some shockingly far left sentiments, like ending insurance companies, trans rights, instituting a max wage, or the like, but it takes trust that has to be built up over time. Thats what sucks. And if u leave them be without forcing the issue when u can and when theyre open to hearing it, they will inevitably find someone else to listen to, and that will more than likely be someone else rightwing.
So you're saying to kill both my parents, all my uncles and aunts, my neighbors, my coworkers, my sister's entire extended family, and practically all my cousins? Instead of, maybe, trying to convince them to change their ways?
Yeah I'll never change the dyed-in-the-wool; I just hope to bring some insight to the bystanders.
Don't forget "I thought Republicans were the party of states rights? Why are they trying to ban abortion nationally after some states held elections to protect abortion in their state constitution?"
Oh that's a good one, I'll take note.
At the end of the day the revolving door of inconsistent conservative values just exposes their real values: "what I want and what I believe and fuck everyone else"
The great thing about highlighting this stuff is it resonates heavily with swing-voters and fence sitters. It's what helped me move from right to left.