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submitted 7 months ago by Camzing@lemmy.world to c/asklemmy@lemmy.world
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[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 33 points 7 months ago

Because (so-called) "libertarians" aren't.

The term "libertarian" has been hijacked in the anglophone-world (starting in the US, of course) to essentially just mean "fundamentalist capitalist" - they are right-wingers who have been immunized from reality and mindlessly support only "liberty" as it applies to private corporations and their interests. Therefore, it shouldn't surprise anyone that you can find these (so-called) "libertarians" anywhere you find neo-nazis and the KKK.

In the non-anglophone world, the term libertarian still holds it's original meaning - a socialist... or, more specifically, an anarchist.

[-] Blackmist@feddit.uk 15 points 7 months ago

It does seem to now mean "people that don't want to pay their taxes".

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 10 points 7 months ago

I can't think of anything more spoilt and privileged than taxes being the only thing you have to whine about.

[-] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 months ago

Aha, well, do note that taxes were essentially the cause of the American Revolution.

[-] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 months ago

Libertarians do tend to support the idea of negative liberty which would include ideas like freedom from compulsory taxes (that's not to say that all libertarians are of the same opinion). To say that it is only that, however, is quite reductionist, and rather ignorant.

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[-] trafficnab@lemmy.ca 8 points 7 months ago

The best description for the modern "libertarian" I've heard is that they're just conservatives who smoke weed

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

The best description for the modern “libertarian” I’ve heard is that they’re just ~~conservatives~~ fascists who smoke weed

Now I agree.

[-] trafficnab@lemmy.ca 5 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

I don't think they're fascist, just selfish in most cases. They take the "me" in "Don't tread on me" too literally, and only care about their own rights and their own needs, fuck everyone else's.

Their Venn diagram of "Things the government should provide/allow people to do" and "Things I personally need/want to do" is just a circle, and they won't lift a finger to try to shape the government to work well for anyone else.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 4 points 7 months ago

One of the vilest messiahs of US "libertarianism," Murray Rothbard, associated with Holocaust deniers and argued for the pig to be allowed to torture suspects (not people convicted of anything - suspects).

If your roots are fascist, you are fascist. US "libertarianism" is about as fascist as Heinrich Himmler.

[-] trafficnab@lemmy.ca 3 points 7 months ago* (last edited 7 months ago)

Probably 99% of self described libertarians don't know anything about that, or actual libertarian rhetoric in general, they just want to smoke weed and not pay taxes for stuff that doesn't personally benefit them and they think that's what libertarianism is

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[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

FWIW,

rw:Murray Rothbard

Rothbard was one of the foremost proponents of the pseudo-psychology known as praxeology. Rothbard viewed property rights as paramount to freedom and so went even beyond von Mises, who was a minarchist, in advocating anarcho-capitalism. He was also known as a big critic of fractional reserve banking and the Federal Reserve. Because of his philosophy, he held many views that would be seen as progressive as well as ones that were misguided. For example, he voiced support for the civil rights movement,[note 1] but also defended the practice of child labor, "racialist science,"[2] and that "cops must be unleashed, and allowed to administer instant punishment."[3] Also, despite his initial vocal support for revolutionary black power politics, he later worked with Lew Rockwell, founder and then president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute, to run a campaign strategy to exploit racism in order to build a libertarian/paleoconservative coalition (dubbed Paleolibertarianism),[4] and praised the notorious work by Richard Herrnstein and Charles Murray, The Bell Curve.[5] He was known as the first anarcho-capitalist.

rw:Benito Mussolini

Benito later followed his mother into school-teaching and became politically active as a democratic socialist. He was a very prominent member of the Italian Socialist Party in the years prior to World War I.[18] He edited several socialist papers and also wrote a satirical novel, The Cardinal's Mistress, which was poorly written and mostly served as a vehicle for numerous anti-clerical rants.[19][20]

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Soooo... US “libertarianism” is about as fascist as Heinrich Himmler.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Apparently Rothbard wasn't as bad as Himmler, but he was bad enough.

You no more have to be a disciple of Rothbard, Rand, or Hoppe to be a libertarian, anymore than you have to be a tankie to be leftist, however tankies might say otherwise.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Apparently Rothbard wasn’t as bad as Himmler,

Of course not - the likes of Rothbard or Rand will never be caught dead close to the mass-graves their ideological grifting helped to dig.

anymore than you have to be a tankie to be leftist

I make a hard distinction between leftists and political racketeers masquerading as leftists right until they get the power they crave. I place everything spawned by the Bolsheviks in the latter category.

There is nothing unique or new about this distinction.

[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Rand wrote about the Nazis and fascists.

She didn't like them.

So are you saying that your brand of leftism was spawned before the Bolsheviks—i.e. over 100 years ago?

What do you think about Karl Marx, a 19th century political philosopher, IIUC?

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[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Not all libertarians smoke weed.

[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 5 points 7 months ago

"Libertarian" became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels. Probably the most famous is "The Moon Is A Harsh Mistress." I love the book as science fiction, but the society the author creates depends on so many caveats that even the author has the old style 'free' system fall apart as soon as an actual government [as opposed to prison regulations] is formed.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 2 points 7 months ago

“Libertarian” became popular in the US when it started being incorporated into various science fiction novels.

They got their que from right-wing economic grifters like Rothbard and Hayek - people whose beliefs wouldn't be out of place in Nazi Germany. That's why olden days US sci-fi writing was a festering hole of fascism - nothing else could have produced people like Heinlein.

[-] Dagwood222@lemm.ee 7 points 7 months ago

Heinlein was a huge friend to Philip K. Dick, and any number of Jewish science fiction writers. He was one of the first writers to have an African woman as a hero, one of the first to have a transman character. Stop using the word 'fascist' for anyone on the Right. It dilutes the term.

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[-] DMBFFF@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

I got mine from the Libertarian party, a few decades ago.

They didn't seem too fascistic back then.

[-] masquenox@lemmy.world 1 points 7 months ago

Of course they didn't, eh? Of course.

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[-] Kalcifer@sh.itjust.works 1 points 7 months ago

I'd personally prefer to not give them the satisfaction of calling themselves "libertarians", and to, instaed, call them out on their missapropriation — the philosophy should be defended from those who would tarnish it.

this post was submitted on 19 May 2024
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