87
you are viewing a single comment's thread
view the rest of the comments
view the rest of the comments
this post was submitted on 28 Sep 2024
87 points (84.8% liked)
News
23669 readers
4002 users here now
Welcome to the News community!
Rules:
1. Be civil
Attack the argument, not the person. No racism/sexism/bigotry. Good faith argumentation only. This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban. Do not respond to rule-breaking content; report it and move on.
2. All posts should contain a source (url) that is as reliable and unbiased as possible and must only contain one link.
Obvious right or left wing sources will be removed at the mods discretion. We have an actively updated blocklist, which you can see here: https://lemmy.world/post/2246130 if you feel like any website is missing, contact the mods. Supporting links can be added in comments or posted seperately but not to the post body.
3. No bots, spam or self-promotion.
Only approved bots, which follow the guidelines for bots set by the instance, are allowed.
4. Post titles should be the same as the article used as source.
Posts which titles don’t match the source won’t be removed, but the autoMod will notify you, and if your title misrepresents the original article, the post will be deleted. If the site changed their headline, the bot might still contact you, just ignore it, we won’t delete your post.
5. Only recent news is allowed.
Posts must be news from the most recent 30 days.
6. All posts must be news articles.
No opinion pieces, Listicles, editorials or celebrity gossip is allowed. All posts will be judged on a case-by-case basis.
7. No duplicate posts.
If a source you used was already posted by someone else, the autoMod will leave a message. Please remove your post if the autoMod is correct. If the post that matches your post is very old, we refer you to rule 5.
8. Misinformation is prohibited.
Misinformation / propaganda is strictly prohibited. Any comment or post containing or linking to misinformation will be removed. If you feel that your post has been removed in error, credible sources must be provided.
9. No link shorteners.
The auto mod will contact you if a link shortener is detected, please delete your post if they are right.
10. Don't copy entire article in your post body
For copyright reasons, you are not allowed to copy an entire article into your post body. This is an instance wide rule, that is strictly enforced in this community.
founded 2 years ago
MODERATORS
Sabotaging dual-use communications devices that are used, specifically, by members of an enemy paramilitary group is not a clear-cut war crime. On the other hand, there is a very strong argument that 'blind-firing' such devices en-masse without regard for the proximity of civilians or possibility of civilian harm is a war crime via insufficiently discerning use of force. But even that is something that could probably be argued in a legitimately-unbiased international court - not that it'll ever fucking get to one, considering Israel's history with international courts.
Either way, it's a shite move that was only meant to escalate the situation so Bibi can stay in power a few more minutes. Vile shit.
"stress that booby-traps associated with objects in normal civilian daily use are prohibited, and that booby-traps must not be used in association with protected persons, protected objects (such as medical supplies, gravesites and cultural or religious property) or internationally recognized protective emblems or signs (such as the red cross and red crescent).[3] Several manuals further specify that booby-traps must not be used in connection with certain objects likely to attract civilians, such as children’s toys."
A cell phone is a normal civil daily use item and would attract use by civilians.
This specifically would come from Rule 80, pertaining to booby traps. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule80
As these were remotely detonated, they do not fit the definition of a booby trap. Rather, the issue becomes a war crime because of Israel's choice to detonate, which was very likely done in a manner that was reckless and without regard for collateral damage.
So would you classify them as an improvised explosive device instead? That the department of homeland security says are used by "criminals, vandals, terrorists, suicide bombers, and insurgents"
That wouldn't be a good look either
Didn't say it was a good look. In fact, I quite explicitly noted that it was a shit move and likely a war crime. Just probably not because of international law on booby traps, but because of international law on discriminate use of force.
I think you're splitting hairs.
The intent of the inclusion of boobytraps within that definition is pretty clear. Ordinary objects, when used as the vector for unexpected explosive discharge, become something distrustful and fearsome. How does one know if a device they are purchasing or picking up is one that's been modified to explode during normal usage?
Almost like someone would say they booby trapped the devices. The intent was clear as you stated.
Please, point out to me which prohibition here was violated.
I think you're looking for excuses. Fuck's sake, splitting hairs? That's quite literally the legal fucking definition.
You're right, that's also why maskirovka is illegal. If you disguise a tank as a house, what comes next?
/s
Also why anti-tank landmines are illegal. If you disguise an explosive under a road, what other dastardly things can you do?
/s
No, the distinction being made between article 4 and 5 is intended to separate intentionally and mindfully placed mines on military objectives where the risk of civilian injury is low and explosives that are 'remotely sent' where the locations must be accurately recorded to prevent accidental discharge after the conflict has ceased.
I see no way to argue that they can ensure the pagers or radios were placed on such 'military targets', nor can they account or record the locations of any that failed to discharge. For all the Lebanese know, there are pagers or radios still in circulation that did not explode on the day of the attack, or that there are more explosives in other mobile devices that have yet to be activated, or were abandoned for use for whatever reason and may go off unexpectedly in the future. It is exactly that uncertainty and the use of everyday objects that makes this terror attack a war crime - not that it matters to a body that has been completely neutered and is incapable of holding Israel accountable without the consent of the US.
Hiding behind the verbiage of the UN charter is cowardly.
Landmines are addressed entirely separately, but thanks for confirming you don't have the first clue you're talking about.
"How dare you quote the law when talking about the law"
Sorry, your feelings on the matter override international law, I know.
I'm not sure what you're even on about, if the pagers (in your view) don't qualify as 'booby traps', they'd still fit the description of 'other devices' that are in the same restriction:
I personally think their being disguised as civilian objects is of particular note and makes the offence more severe, but even without that classification it's considered a war crime
It would be a tall order to prove that the pagers were actually and exclusively distributed to Hezbollah combatants
As with above, they had no reasonable way of knowing that the pagers would be directed as intended or be on their intended target at the time of discharge
Pretty clearly caused incidental loss of civilian life and injury, especially in relation to the concrete military advantage. I haven't even heard stated any material military advantage gained from this other than relating to the fear they intended to evoke
No matter how you're slicing it, under Protocol II of the UN the pager attacks would be a violation and subject to war crime charges. It being a literal 'booby trap', 'mine', or 'other device' is immaterial to its criminality.
You're forgetting a couple or statements there. These were absolutely booby traps and command detonated traps exist.
"Booby traps and other devices" is one legal thing, there's no legal distinction. Pager bombs are always a war crime regardless of circumstances.
No. The distribution is as indiscriminate as leaving command detonated mines in place. (also a war crime). You cannot ensure those mines only target combatants after you leave. The indiscriminate distribution is a war crime as much as the indiscriminate activation.
Hezbollah isn't just a paramilitary group, though, it's an actual political party in Lebanon.
You'd have to have an extremely narrow understanding of who Hezbollah even is to claim the attack was legitimate
Not to mention the intentional fear the strike created that now legitimizes Hezbollah's mandate against Israel. Yea, it was 'shite', but it seems pretty well designed to manufacture fear and chaos and to bait Lebanon into a broader conflict.