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this post was submitted on 28 Dec 2024
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The Democratic strategists predictably have both learned nothing from this losing this election and are planning on shifting the party to the right. Accelerationism is useless. There was no leverage over the Democrats, instead they are going to chase after moderates and conservatives who voted. If we are lucky enough to have another election, please vote and encourage other people to vote.
the lack of votes is because the democrats suck; telling them to vote wo addressing the reasons why they don't vote is a waste of time.
There can be more than one lesson from an election. Democrats need a populist socialist and progressive narrative. Socialists, progressives, and leftists in general need to push the Democrats to the left by voting for them during elections. Between elections we need grassroots movements to get better candidates.
If leftists cling to accelerationism in 2026 and 2028 we will see the rightward trend of the Democrat party continue. Accelerationism makes it harder to fix things by allowing them to get worse while learning nothing.
Aka: Rinse and repeat 🙄
Let's both hope your democratic non-voter buddies are pissed off enough at trump during the next cycle to show up and vote this time, because leftists definitely won't if the dnc keeps going rightwards; again.
I can understand how daunting of a task it may seem to get your own people to vote from where you're sitting on a horse so high that you're unable to understand that you've bought into an alienating stereotype of your most needful allies to defeat the trumpers, but I have faith that Americans will come to see how we keep shooting ourselves in the foot; eventually.
My argument is referring to leftists. They are the non-voters. By definition, a non-voter isn't affiliated with any party.
The DNC will keep shifting right if leftists don't vote for them. A tit-for-tat strategy will keep leftists out of power and Democrats moving to the right until one group changes strategies. The DNC isn't going to systemically change unless it is co-opted by socialists and progressives, but the DNC can change who they cater to. The DNC can start catering to leftists incrementally if leftists start voting for Democrats.
Your argument's horse is dead. Your argument's position was shown to be false this election. Leftists didn't vote for Democrats in 2024 and now Democrats are catering to moderates and conservatives who voted. Democrats are not catering to leftists. I recommend you get of your dead horse. Until then we will be ruled by fascists.
As long as we still have elections, leftists will learn to vote for the most left leaning viable mainstream political party or they will watch fascists kill us all with death camps and climate change. Unfortunately it's not enough for bad things to happen to people to learn their lessons.
I recommend you take the time to understand how the 2024 election disproves your argument's position. No amount of bad election outcomes, death, or destruction of the planet will do that thinking for anyone.
Studies have shown that new evidence that contradicts a person's beliefs is both as painful as physical pain and is not effective at changing a person's position in the short term. People have to take the time to internalize that they were wrong. If we start now people should understand they need to vote for Democrats by the 2026 and 2028 elections.
I've had this conversation SO MANY TIMES with people outside the American empire that it's taught me that it's a waste of time w such a thoroughly propagandazed westerner sympathizer like you; but I'm bored atm so why not? Maybe I'll learn something new?
As they haven't since (in totality) since 2012 because of things like Obama's drone strikes and the botching of Obamacare. Leftist haven't voted for democrats in over 12 years and will not again until Democrats wake up to see how the DNC is gaslighting them.
The conservatives didn't vote for Democrats; they haven't that way since the 1960's and never will again. And despite Democrats repeatedly failed attempts to peel away voters from the GOP in 1988, 1996, 2004, 2016, & now 2024. The DNC will try again in 2026 and 2028 and MAYBE Democrats disdain for Trump will change the tide.
Yes, correct, 100%; leftist have not voted Democrat since Obama and democrats will continue to insist that they should anyways; futily so. That's an internal Democrat/DNC issue for them to figure out why democrats are not voting for the Democratic platform.
Incorrect; As I said: leftist started leaving the Democratic fold back in the early 2000's. So now it's only the Democrats caucusing with the Democrats (except maybe for bernie) and they've decided that their caucus is correct and that anyone else must fall in line and no one is falling inline; not even your fellow democrats in this ekection.
Yes; it's the Weimar Republic all over again and simoly because the DNC believes that everyone must accept their platform; willfully ignoring that their platform is just as unpalatable as the republican's platform; full fat facism and diet facism both suck.
The leftist have left behind knowledge on how to survive the Weimar Republic in writing; have you read it and has it taught you how to be ready for what's coming next?
Correct: so long as democratics continue to assume that they're the adults in the room despite how fowl their platform is dooming us all.
DEAR PLEASE GOD!!! Take the next logical step and realize that the Democrat platform so SO UNPALATABLE that not even your fellow democrats will vote for it and that your expectations of other parties accepting it are just as unrealistic as any republican accepting it; no matter how similar you think they are!
The DNC has been trying to peel republicans aways from the GOP since the 1980's and it has always failed like it did in this election; they will continue to try again in 2026 and 2028 and it may buy time because of Trump; but it's only a matter of time for our respective ruling classes adapt to this eality.
To clarify when I refer to leftists I mean, from left to right on the political spectrum, anarchists, anarcho-communists, communists, socialists, democratic-socialists, social democrats, and progressives. Of people with these political positions probably democratic-socialists, social democrats, and progressives were among the leftists that voted for Biden in 2020 in the greatest numbers.
Authoritarian communists or tankies are not leftists, but red fascists. They occupy the same position on the political spectrum as fascists and of course didn't vote for Biden. Both red fascism and fascism are the same in that they both build hierarchies and then start killing people at the bottom of those hierarchies. The fascists build racial hierarchies. The red fascists build ideological hierarchies. Neither qualify as leftists because leftists want to deconstruct hierarchies.
you don't get to gate keep for a multitude of reasons; but the most relevant one here is because they're not your people and yes; leftists will sometimes break rank to vote for a democrat like they did for obama and also because trump was so shitty in 2020. if democrats put up another non-diet-republican candidate (or if trump royally screws it up again); they too will get more leftists votes; assuming voting is still a thing by 2028.
the problem with the democrats is that they assume that leftists must always vote for them like they're on the same team; but they're not on your team. there are multiple distinct leftists parties in this country; each one has their own unique platform and they only accidentally align with the democratic platform as it did with that of the republicans' until maga took over.
the dnc is trying to make you believe that the people who aren't even on your team are the reasons why they must turn your team into diet republicans and it's so unpalatable that not even your own team members will show up to play ball anymore; much less so for anyone else, including leftists.
There can more than one lesson to learn from an election. Democrats need a populist narrative to push a progressive and socialist agenda. Leftists need to learn to exercise power and keep fascists out of power. The only way to get the DNC to stop being neoliberal is to co-opt the party the way MAGA did to the Republicans. Not voting lets the fascists win and allows the Democratic Party to shift to the right.
We had the ability to stop Trump's second term, but we failed to counteract the spread of accelerationist propaganda and impress the need to exercise power on the behalf of underprivileged people. No amount of fuck ups from the Democrats and their consultants justifies refusing to use our only tool to win political power during elections.
The worry is that if leftists do vote for them, the Democrats will just conclude that they don't need to move left to get left votes. The problem is the total inability of Democratic leadership to see any allegiance with the left or any advantage in attracting them.them.
More effective might be a concerted campaign to infiltrate leftists into the Democratic Party and change its direction from within. But that's tricky because if you reveal your left sympathies the party won't have you, but if you hide them the voters won't vote for you.
Vote for who? The democrats were unelectable this election and will remain unelectable until they ditch their corporate status quo nonsense. This isn't to say Trump is a better option, but the GOP and DNC were never competing on the same level and thinking they are will only lead to more Trump or Trump wannabes because no matter how much you (or anyone else) tell people to vote people won't vote for the current DNC.
The answer is that you vote in the primaries to shift the party left as far as you can, and then you vote in the general for whatever version of that party you end up with that time around. You don't sit on your ass in the expectation that they will come to you; you make them come to you.
The primary that the DNC messes with to get the candidate they want every time? Or the one they skip or cancel when it doesn't suit them? Not saying people shouldn't vote in primaries, but the DNC is way beyond being fixed by actions like this.
The person you are responding to loves this and is gloating.
Primaries. Plural. As in there are a whole bunch of them. Not just the one for president.
You don't start at the top. You get your candidates in from the bottom up, and then you go for the top jobs.
Look, you only have two options here; fix the party you have, or come up with a realistic plan for building a new one that can somehow be electorally viable. So unless you really think you can offer a clear and actionable path to the latter, you're stuck with the former.
3.) Pass electoral reform at the state level so people can be free to vote outside the two party system and still have their vote counted against Republicans.
Do you believe in democracy? Do you believe in freedom?
I mean I'm not American so I can't do much except watch and yap on the internet, but I do think making a new party and starting local is a lot more viable than changing the DNC. At least that way the fossils at the top won't be fighting you at every turn.
The DNC plays favorites with those too so...
The US' two party system is a result of our first-past-the-post voting system. We need to change the system first or else all leftist third parties will act as spoilers for the Democrats.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo
The two-party system guarantees a party duopoly, but it doesn't say anything about which parties become part of that duopoly so it's possible to depose one of the two big parties in a certain election like what Bernie did in Vermont. Now at least for a while you'll end up splitting the vote, but you'll need to accept that much if you want to get anything done because the DNC will absolutely not, never pass election reform or shift left.
Unfortunately the Democrats and Republicans have been entrenched for decades. The first-post-the-post system played out long before we were even alive.
Bernie is not deposing the Democratic party, but co-opting it. He caucuses with the Democratic Party. We need to fully co-opt the Democratic party which is what Bernie tried to do in 2016 and 2020. This is what Trump has done to the Republican Party with the MAGA movement.
Until we change the system, third parties will always split the vote. It's a mathematical certainty.
There are numerous examples of rank choice voting being implemented in America in blue states.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ranked-choice_voting_in_the_United_States
The Democrats have been incrementally shifting left since Clinton. Biden was our most progressive president since at least Carter by virtue of being the least conservative. Democrat Supreme Court justice nominations and appointments led to gay marriage being legalized.
If people on the left vote for Democrats, the Democrats will shift left. If people on the left spend their time denying themselves their most useful strategy to gain political power during elections, voting for Democrats, then the Democrats will shift right. edit: typo
Doesn't mean it can't change now. No, lemme rephrase that: It has to change or y'all are absolutely fucked.
Bernie is independent. He's not a democratic, yet he's winning elections in Vermont without "splitting the vote". That's what I meant by having deposed them.
For local office, and only two states doing it for state office. This doesn't mean much for federal office, which is where you will see resistance from the DNC.
Yeah, and they decided that was too much snd tried to go back to the right while thinking they'll still get progressive votes, when progressives by your claim were supposed to have leverage. Biden also led the US's support for Israel's genocide, again when progressives were supposed to have "leverage". They're shifting left one step and back three, as seen by Harris's support for that idiotic border wall and democrats coopting Republican immigration policies.
The way we do that is by voting for Democrats and telling other people to vote for Democrats.
Exactly. He is an independent who caucuses with the Democrats. He hasn't deposed the Democrats, they are still here, in fact Bernie works with them. The goal is not to get rid of the Democratic Party, but to control it.
My point is that the claim that
is demonstrably false. Democrats have passed election reform which means they can pass it again at the federal level. Things that gets done at the federal level can find their root at the state level, such as gay marriage.
Because people didn't vote for them.
I do not claim anyone has leverage over political parties via voting. There is no fulcrum on the political spectrum. People who vote have power. People who do vote have given up their power.
Biden was following 70 years of US policy. To be clear, Biden is complicit in Israel's genocide of Palestinians. But the idea that a US President would drop a long standing ally is not a serious one. Especially when taking into account that the ally is Israel and Biden is a life long zionist. Biden was undermining negotiations with Israel during the Obama administration.
Biden is not representative of non-zionist Democrats. Unfortunately thanks to the useless strategy of non-voting we are going to see a lot more zionists in power in Congress for at least the next two to years. This will have devastating consequences for Palestine and the Middle East in general.
Also again, there is no leverage. Only political power. There is no fulcrum on the political spectrum. Without something to pivot on there is no leverage. There is no reason why non-voters or third party voters would compulse any mainstream political party to do anything when there are voters that can be targeted.
The Democrats take one step forward to the left, while the Republicans take three steps back to the right. The Democrats refusal to embrace any populist narrative or any narrative at all means they can never shape the discourse. All they can do is try to comprise on the issues laid out by the Republican's narrative. The Democrats need to be co-opted by a socialist and progressive movement and then be given a populist narrative to win votes.
Jessica Cisneros says hello.
Democrats of course because they are the furthest left, by virtue of being the least conservative, viable party we have. They are the only political tool available because of our first-past-the-post system.
Democrats cannot be leveraged by not voting for them. They have to be pushed to the left by voting for them. If they see there is a large block of socialist and progressive voters in the electorate they will move to capture these voters.
Until leftists learn to see their vote as a routine utility based decision they will not have any political power. To not vote is to give up power. Getting better candidates comes from grassroots movements between elections.
If we don't want to live under fascist rule then as long as we still have elections we need to vote for the Democrats. We need to tell people to vote for the Democrats and explain why. If anyone has the energy to argue on the internet then they can argue for the most useful approach we have.
No one thinks the Democrats are a great political party. But voting is the means of liberating ourselves from Republican rule in a two-party system. If people won't vote for Democrats then they will be ruled by fascists.
People will vote in their own self-interest. The amount of energy that goes into trying to make the most useful things people could do during elections, vote for Democrats, seem useless is of course to the benefit of the owner class and Republicans.
Counterpoint: Progressives (and many other groups) voted for Biden in large numbers for the DNC, and what came out of that was the 2024 shitshow and a lame duck president. The DNC thinks, only partially correctly, that as long as progressives don't have a viable third party they'll be forced to vote blue like it or not and that as a result the party can shift right as much as it wants. You say that voting for them gives you leverage, but what good is leverage that you can't use?
Fewer numbers than in 2020. Biden got 81,283,361 votes in 2020. Kamala only got 75,000,783 votes in 2024.
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2020-elections/president-results
https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/2024-elections/president-results
The Democrats look at who votes. Democrats don't think about leftists, because as far as Democrats are concerned people who don't vote don't exist. The Democrats want political power and they are willing to chase voters, not non-voters, to get it.
They don't just think they can shift right, they think they have to shift right in order to win. If leftists can't be asked to vote for Republicans or Democrats then the Democrats thinks they are a lost cause.
It is not about leverage. It's about power. Voting gives people power not leverage. If a group votes for a political party then that political party caters to that group. If a group doesn't vote then political parties chase other groups that do vote. Grassroots movements can get better candidates between elections.
This whole idea of leverage has been demonstrated to be false in this election. There is no fulcrum on the political spectrum. Democrats should be clambering to get leftist votes right now according to the hypothesis of leverage, but the evidence shows the opposite, the Democrats are frantically looking for moderate and conservative votes.
Political parties have to be shoved in the desired direction. The way to shove political parties during elections is by voting for them.
No you don't get me. The party platform shifted to the right in 2024 despite getting progressive votes in 2020. By your hypothesis this shouldn't have happened. Progressives voted for the DNC in 2020 and yet were abandoned by them in 2024.
That aside your assumptions here are game theoretically false. You cannot get someone to act in your best interest if you promise to support them no matter what they do. It simply doesn't make sense, as we have seen from how the DNC treated progressives this election.The DNC doesn't follow leftist (or really working class) votes because they're behold to their corporate donors (and because they're led by fossils who should've retired or died decades ago), not because it's successful electoral strategy.
This ignores the incremental shift to the left by Biden after the 2020 election which supports my arguments and refutes your argument.
The Democrats won in 2020 when more people voted for them and shifted left.
The Democrats lost in 2024 when fewer people voted for them and shifted right.
The 2024 election is the evidence that refutes your argument's position. People didn't vote for Democrats and the Democrats are now looking for moderate and conservatives who voted. It was the people on the left claiming they wouldn't vote so it's reasonable that leftists are making up part of the difference in the popular vote count.
People always act in their self-interest. The goal is to get people to understand that voting for the viable mainstream political party that is the furthest to the left is the most useful strategy to forward their self interest.
The evidence from this election in fact demonstrates my argument to be correct. My argument is that if progressives don't vote they won't be catered to by Democrats. Progressives didn't vote and now they aren't being catered to by Democrats.
While both parities are beholden to the owner class, the corporate donors can only provide money to seek out votes. Democrats still need a voting base to cater to. The votes are still the essential resource to win elections as that is what is counted in an election. We still need to co-opt the Democrats to get a socialist and progressive agenda to get rid of the owner class.
The DNC doesn't seek out leftists because leftists don't vote. The DNC seeks out people who vote.
lolwut, maybe read your own post it's contradictory.
What USA needs is more political parties.
The US has more political parties. What we need is a voting system where third parties are not spoiler candidates.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7tWHJfhiyo