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El Salvador closes 2024 with a record low number of homicides
(abcnews.go.com)
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this post was submitted on 03 Jan 2025
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Good.
Say that to the innocents in those prisons without due process
While there are no doubt some innocents who got caught up; it has been shown time and again that the fastest and most efficient way to deal with wide spread gangs that have essentially taken over a country is massive arrests of anyone even remotely related to them.
It can turn violence filled hell-holes into safe communities within months, and the people know it. There's a reason Argentinians and El Salvadorians have massive approval for their government right now; because it worked. People are free to walk on the street without fear of getting shot. For those who lived in fear for so long, a few false positives is a small price to pay for locking up practically every criminal overnight.
"Few"? You actually have nothing to back that up. Nothing. You have no idea if 1% or 5% or 10% or 50% or 80% are innocent. No idea. The police has no idea. Nobody has any idea and nobody seems to care.
The state eats up anyone who has a gang "vibe" (ie is a working class young man) without even a plan for some eventual trial and due process.
And yes, Terror has results here, but Bukele has not described what an exit from the state of exception will look like. Will there be actual trials in half a year, in 10 years? Nobody knows. Just praise the dear leader.
Once state monopoly in violence has been re-established, you need to re-establish rule of law, otherwise you've just replaced tyranny by gangs with tyranny by the state.
This ends all my support for his mode and efforts. Even a single innocent is beyond unacceptable and proof your system is fucked.
Arguably a false positive prison rate that is lower than the old innocent murder victim rate is still a net improvement. No system is perfect, and even inaction has an associated cost.
You're saying this from the luxury of a stable country. If the same thing were tried where you live, it would be horrific and wrong, because those actions aren't warranted in a stable country. They only become acceptable when crime and violence have become so deeply rooted that it's impossible to tackle them with normal means.
Imagine late stage cancer. It's beyond the ability to get out with surgery. Instead, more drastic measures are required such as chemo or radiation therapy. This kills the cancer, but also kills some surrounding cells. It's necessarily destructive because the cancer has spread too far to fix with less invasive measures. Imagine someone dismissing those treatments as barbaric because "even a single non-cancerous cell dying is unacceptable". Meanwhile the person dying from cancer doesn't really give a shit, they just want to be free from cancer.
You don't have a single clue how bad things were in those countries before. You didn't go outside, even in the daytime. Nearly every business was held hostage by gangs. Seeing dead bodies was a common occurrence. If you got robbed, or raped, or killed, too bad; there was essentially zero justice to be found or had. For those living under those conditions for years, the price for safety is well worth it.
You're opposed because of the innocents who might be in jail? Where is your concern for the innocents just outright murdered due to unchecked crime?
USA is among the states with highest proportion of people in cages. El Salvador has only doubled the USA numbers. In both cases, yes, it's horrific and wrong.
Also the argument that extreme oppression is ok for others but not for "us" is grossly overprivileged.
You’re saying this from the luxury of not an over crowded cell because all you did was be outside at the time a government truck pulled over and abducted a group of random people at gun point.
Yes it sounds great to say things when you’re not the one suffering the consequences.
What if more innocents would be suffering worse fates had the government not stepped in with their current tactics?
Yes, terrible oppression is most often based on imaginary arguments.
So you’ll trade one innocent life for two?
And who are you to decide who’s lives?
I mean, you are also trading 2 lifes for 1 life. Indecision has consequences as well, so you have to do a tradeoff.
I was asking you what you think.
It seems like you're the one who's saying it's preferable for 2 innocents to be punished by gangs vs. 1 innocent being punished by the state. Is this how you feel, yes or no?
If you're afraid to answer this question, it's because you're insecure and you know how stupid it would look to say you'd prefer more innocent people to suffer at the hands of gangs.
Whatever comforts you
Okay. It's better for fewer innocents to suffer at the hands of the state than it is for more innocents to suffer at the hands of gangs.
You can change your stance going forward, since you're basing it off of whatever comforts me.
What do you think should have been done instead?
Ditch the USD and kick out the colonizers... Too bad it's also a recipe for imperial invasion.
(Nobody has been laughing about their buying bitcoin lately...)
As much as I feel for innocent's, the situation in El Salvador was bad: https://images.app.goo.gl/WWrXq7TXQWvqnuaV8
I feel like as harsh and authoritarian as Bulakes plan has been - ignoring mass violence on your people impacts a much greater magnitude of innocenta
Gotta raise up education and society at large though, can't just toss everyone in jail
Well, if anything, Bukele actually could and did toss everyone in jail.