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El Salvador closes 2024 with a record low number of homicides (abcnews.go.com)

submitted 2 days ago by MicroWave@lemmy.world to c/world@lemmy.world

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Summary

El Salvador ended 2024 with a record low 114 homicides, equivalent to 1.9 per 100,000 people, making it the safest country in the Western Hemisphere according to President Nayib Bukele.

The drop follows two years under a state of emergency aimed at eradicating gang violence, granting authorities sweeping powers but limiting civil rights.

Over 83,000 arrests have been made, though 354 detainees reportedly died in custody.

While criticized for human rights violations, Bukele's crackdown has drastically improved security, boosting his popularity.

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[-] theacharnian@lemmy.ca 24 points 2 days ago

On the one hand, Bukele is basically installing an authoritarian dictatorship here, so can we even trust these numbers? And the real big fish criminals are probably in cahoots with the regime. And of course people are getting eaten up by an inhumane, classist system that is producing a lost generation. So fuck all that.

On the other hand however, the previous situation was indeed unlivable. It was like living in the purge every day, with people living under the thumb of petty gangsters. And I'm really struggling to come up with an example of a nation coming back from this kind of collapse without some kind of Terror, in the Jacobin sense.

Like, sometimes a state of exception, a state of emergency is actually justified, and the state needs to re-establish the monopoly on violence. If Claudia Sheinbaum went Bukele against the Cartels in the north for example, would she really not be justified?

[-] LeroyJenkins@lemmy.world 12 points 1 day ago

definitely numbers to take with a grain of salt. but by accounts from people living there, the difference is noticable even if it's not as high as what the government says. even tourism has had a huge uptick because people actually feel pretty safe going there now.

[-] Jumi@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

You can't make an omelet without cracking a few eggs

[-] davepleasebehave@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

you can't make a tomlette without cracking a few Greggs

[-] Nuke_the_whales@lemmy.world 34 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Easy when you toss people into a pit without due process. I wonder what the percentage is of innocent people rotting in those inhumane prisons they built. Not to mention that those prisons and form of justice will eventually be turned towards the next batch of "undesirables" in no time. Including his political opponents. This president can wear a backwards hat and act like he's a man of the people, but he's a wealthy nepo oligarch.

Edit: you're a fool if you think this guy isn't hiding the real numbers

[-] HobbitFoot@thelemmy.club 11 points 2 days ago

He could be hiding the numbers, but the drop is near an order of magnitude from the peak.

[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 19 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Killings by police officers per 10 million population:

United Kingdom - 0.5
France - 5.5
Canada - 18.6
United States - 33
El Salvador - 1703.8

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_with_annual_rates_and_counts_for_killings_by_law_enforcement_officers

[-] David_Eight@lemmy.world 3 points 1 day ago

Afaik the USA does not release official statistics for this because individual police precincts refuse to cooperate.

[-] Danitos@reddthat.com 13 points 2 days ago

El Salvador: 1829.9

That's number is Venezuela's. El Salvador is 1703.8. Note the data is from 2017, 2 years before Bukele became president.

[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 1 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

Thank you for the correction, much appreciated.

And yes, I am aware that it's older data, but given that Bukele's moves as president have consisted entirely of even harsher policing, I sincerely doubt that that number has gone lower.

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

Could it be that that number came from active warfare with the gangs (which have now been neutered)?

[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 0 points 1 day ago* (last edited 1 day ago)

Syria's numbers are literally from an active civil war, and they're half of El Salvador's.

So no, I don't really feel like that holds water as a justification. Valid as context, yes, but there's still no good reason for the number to be that high.

Also "Our country is really peaceful now that we've run out of people for cops to kill" doesn't exactly sound like a paradise to me.

Yes, it's why Bukele is popular. But we shouldn't be holding it up as something to emulate.

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

Syria's numbers are literally from an active civil war

Doesn't that make their numbers immediately questionable? Especially since what level of policing do you even have during a civil war

[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago

What it means in this case is that you've got open warfare between the police and a large segment of the populace. Not unlike your premise that the numbers from El Salvador are the result of, effectively, open warfare between the police and the gangs.

Neither countries numbers are any more or less questionable than the other's. Take from this what you will.

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 3 points 1 day ago

I'd say in Syria it was more militants and militaries doing the warfare rather than police, but that's just my gut feeling, the police's involvement might've been larger than I think

[-] Voroxpete@sh.itjust.works 1 points 1 day ago

Read the source. It specifically notes that the numbers from Syria are exceptionally high because they are in the context of an active civil war.

[-] Kusimulkku@lemm.ee 2 points 1 day ago

Read the source

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[-] IDKWhatUsernametoPutHereLolol@lemmy.dbzer0.com 26 points 2 days ago

There is no ~~war~~ murder in ~~Ba Sing Se~~ El Salvador

[-] Stovetop@lemmy.world 19 points 2 days ago

I have to wonder what their suicide rate is like, though.

From a Terry Pratchett book:

Murder was in fact a fairly uncommon event in Ankh-Morpork, but there were a lot of suicides. Walking in the night-time alleyways of The Shades was suicide. Asking for a short in a dwarf bar was suicide. Saying “Got rocks in your head?” to a troll was suicide. You could commit suicide very easily, if you weren’t careful.

[-] eldavi@lemmy.ml 7 points 2 days ago* (last edited 2 days ago)

are there enough people left outside of the salvadoran prison system to even engage in war? lol

[-] LordWiggle@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago

"security", as long as you won't get arrested and imprisoned without a trial, because of a vague suspicion because you entered a shop which got robbed 3 hours ago and you just came there to buy some cheese. Ah well, better 10 innocent imprisoned than 1 guilty in the streets, right? Oh no, it's El Salvador, Better 100 innocent imprisoned than 1 guilty in the street. Better safe then sorry!

[-] ZK686@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

So, go back to how it was before? Is that what you're saying? There's either this way, or the way it was before. Ask the people of El Salvador what they prefer.

[-] theherk@lemmy.world 6 points 1 day ago

I wonder if this is a bit of a false dichotomy. I don’t think you’ll find anybody that wants it “back how it was before”, but rather how it is going now but without all the collateral damage and arrests of innocent people.

[-] calcopiritus@lemmy.world 2 points 1 day ago

That's the thing. The reason El Salvador was so effective in eliminating crime is because they don't care about imprisoning innocent people.

You can't have the effectiveness without the collateral damage.

Which one is preferable? I don't know. But you can't eat the cake and have it too.

[-] NauticalNoodle@lemmy.ml 1 points 1 day ago

"Ask the people of El Salvador what they prefer."

When you say "People of El Salvador" are you including those who are currently imprisoned? If not, then it's just a matter of imprisoning everyone who disagrees with those in charge...

[-] thisphuckinguy@lemmy.world 10 points 2 days ago

All Salvadorians I hear from say they are happy with the situation.

[-] PlasticLove@lemmy.today 28 points 2 days ago

Selection bias no? You’re not exactly going to hear from the innocent person stuck in a jail without representation or due process.

[-] Cosmonauticus@lemmy.world 2 points 2 days ago

Can't really fault them. Not like it was the safest place to live before he became dictator

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[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 17 points 2 days ago

In case you were wondering like I was:

A new report from the FBI shows that the U.S. homicide rate has come down from its pandemic peak. In 2022, the government agency counted 6.3 homicides per 100,000 of U.S. population, down from 6.8 in 2021 - the equivalent of a fall of around 6 percent.

https://www.statista.com/chart/31062/us-homicide-rate/

I live in a fucking third world country. Hopefully not for much longer.

[-] gravityowl@lemm.ee 9 points 2 days ago

By definition, if you live in the US, you live a country from the "first world" bloc (ie. The western bloc)

Please stop using the term "third world" to mean poor country

[-] FlyingSquid@lemmy.world 3 points 2 days ago

Seems like an insulting term is the perfect one to use for America.

[-] BeMoreCareful@lemmy.world 8 points 2 days ago

Just say shithole.

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[-] BearGun@ttrpg.network 1 points 1 day ago

Not when it's factually incorrect. There's plenty of things wrong with America, no need to call it something it isn't.

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this post was submitted on 03 Jan 2025

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