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John Oliver is being pedantic about Venn diagrams... (feddit.org)
submitted 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago) by ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org to c/confidently_incorrect@lemmy.world
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Kamala Harris is known to love Venn diagrams and would be cringing hard at this.

For reference, circles in Venn (Euler) diagrams are sets of objects with a certain property. Select objects are shown inside or outside of each circle depending on whether they belong to the set.
A good example is xkcd 2962:
Hard to imagine political rhetoric more microtargeted at me than 'I love Venn diagrams. I really do, I love Venn diagrams. It's just something about those three circles.'

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[-] bobzilla@lemmy.world 26 points 4 months ago

Can someone explain what part he's incorrect about? (Since we're in ConfidentlyIncorrect)

[-] napoleonsdumbcousin@feddit.org 16 points 4 months ago

A correct Venn diagram of "KAMA" and "BLA" would have only "A" in the middle, because that is the only part that is present in both.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 8 points 4 months ago

If we assume it's about letters, then the sets would need to be like

( KM ( A ) BL )
[-] napoleonsdumbcousin@feddit.org 5 points 4 months ago

No, because A is not part of KM or of BL. The intersection is supposed to show what both sets have in common.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 9 points 4 months ago

I am correct if we assume

  • Left set: "Letters in 'KAMA'"
  • Right set: "Letters in 'BLA'"

The exclusive region of the left set will only contain K and M. The left set will contain K, M and A, the last one is also a member of the right set.

[-] napoleonsdumbcousin@feddit.org 5 points 4 months ago

Oh, now i get what you meant. Sorry, I misunderstood.

[-] ccunning@lemmy.world 7 points 4 months ago

Which part of the tweet did you think was right?

[-] bobzilla@lemmy.world 22 points 4 months ago

Maybe I should ask OP who it is they're saying is confidently incorrect? I originally thought that they were saying Oliver was incorrect, but your response makes me wonder if they meant the Trump campaign response was incorrect.

Basically, I just want clarification.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 8 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I'm not saying either is good use of Venn diagrams (as opposed to the provided xkcd comic). A better "mathematical" way to express the relation is simply "KAMA + BLA = KAMABLA" (yes, the mathematical sign "+" is not used for concatenation in math but you get the point).

The tweet would work if we assume:

  • Left set A contains words that include "KAMA", notably "KAMA" itself
  • Right set B contains words that include "BLA", notably "BLA" itself
    • Their intersection A ∩ B contains words that belong to both sets, notably "KAMABLA".

Is it a technically correct Venn diagram? I'd say it could be, given the above weird assumptions.
Is a Venn diagram the correct tool for the job? No.

As for JO's example with sea creatures: if we assume

  • A is a set of dolphins
  • B is a set of sharks
    • their intersection is an empty set: A ∩ B = { } because no dolphins are sharks

JO's example might work if

  • A was a set of properties of dolphins
  • B was a set of properties of sharks
    • their intersection includes "lives in the ocean": A ∩ B = {"lives in the ocean", ...} because "lives in the ocean" is both a property of dolphins and a property of sharks

However, this essentially turns around the convention "sets are defined by properties and include objects" to "sets are defined by objects and include their properties", which is in my opinion even more cringey than considering "words containing 'BLA'" a notable set. (From a mathematical standpoint. The entire "Kamabla" thing is pure cringe in the practical sense.)

[-] ccunning@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

I think this is a good explanation of why JO is wrong, which I was not expecting.

As for JO's example with sea creatures: if we assume

  • A is a set of dolphins
  • B is a set of sharks
    • their intersection is an empty set: A ∩ B = { } because no dolphins are sharks

This was my exact thought as I was watching but totally let it pass when he gave his “solution” without another thought before now.

However I still don’t think the tweet works. Your logic is sound but the diagram would need to label sets A and B with “Words that include…”

Of course that would just further expose it as unfunny and pointless.

ETA: I notice you edited the comment while I was replying. Hoping you didn’t change the substance too much - I don’t have time at the moment to figure out what changed and see if my response still applies 😅🤞

[-] tobogganablaze@lemmus.org 4 points 4 months ago

It's certainly not very useful or informative.

But please explain how it is incorrect.

[-] Carighan@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

In a Venn diagram, the overlap is what the individual areas have in common. It's the intersection, not the union.

[-] ccunning@lemmy.world -1 points 4 months ago

Well for starters Kamabla is not actually at the intersection of Kama and Bla…

[-] tobogganablaze@lemmus.org 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

You have two strings and in the overlap you have the concatenated string formed from the parts. Again, not useful but a totally valid interpretation.

So .... can you actually explain why you think it is incorrect or is snarky comments all you got?

[-] ccunning@lemmy.world 4 points 4 months ago

This article on Intersection might help you understand

Here are the basics, though:

The intersection of {\displaystyle A}and {\displaystyle B} is the set {\displaystyle A\cap B} of elements that lie in both set {\displaystyle A} and set {\displaystyle B}

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

That picture does not make it clear that the labels refer to regions, not elements. A clearer explanation of set operators is the following:

Set worksheet

  1. B (Set B)
  2. A ∪ B (Union of A and B)
  3. A (Set A)
  4. A \ B (A minus B; notation varies)
  5. B \ A (B minus A)
  6. A ∩ B (Intersection of A and B)
[-] Carighan@lemmy.world 1 points 4 months ago

What relation function matches your interpretation?

Since you're the Venn diagram expert now...

[-] Visstix@lemmy.world 6 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

The kamabla in the middle suggests that both kama and bla have kamabla in it, since that's what they have in common. But kama doesn't have bla, and bla doesn't have kama. So they should not overlap. Hope that makes sense.

[-] Willy@sh.itjust.works 2 points 4 months ago

but that what I remember him saying.

[-] Visstix@lemmy.world 2 points 4 months ago

I'm not sure what that has to do with Venn diagrams.

[-] peto@lemm.ee 13 points 4 months ago

Guess this is the difference between chart bitches and diagram enjoyers.

[-] ChaoticNeutralCzech@feddit.org 4 points 4 months ago* (last edited 4 months ago)

Chart bitches be like: "The y-axis does not start at 0! Misleading!"

Diagram enjoyers be like: "It mathematically cannot because it's a logarithmic scale, which is the only way this data can be reasonably visualized; but I suppose they should have made the y-labels bigger and add minor horizontal gridlines so even people like you notice that."

this post was submitted on 13 Aug 2024
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