500
submitted 18 hours ago by jeffw@lemmy.world to c/politics@lemmy.world
top 50 comments
sorted by: hot top controversial new old
[-] frezik@midwest.social 20 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

It's not just the electoral college. The US was the first big modern democracy, and all the democracies that have sprung up since took one look at its structure and said "nah". This includes democracies the US directly helped setup in their current form, such as Germany, Japan, and Iraq. Nobody wants to replicate that structure, including the US.

States as semi-sovereign entities rather than administrative zones? Nope. Every state gets two reps in the upper legislative branch? Nope. Those two reps plus at least one lower legislative rep means that the smallest state gets at least three votes in the Electoral College? What madness is that? Even the executive being separate from the head of the legislative branch is uncommon everywhere else.

Parliamentary systems, where the Prime Minister is both head of the legislative branch and the executive, are more common. Some of these split some of the duties of the executive off into a President, but that President isn't as singularly powerful as the US President. The US idea that the different branches would have checks and balances against each other was rendered pointless the moment the first political parties were developed.

[-] UnderpantsWeevil@lemmy.world 2 points 5 hours ago

Even the executive being separate from the head of the legislative branch is uncommon everywhere else.

The Presidential System (as distinct from the Prime Ministerial System) is common throughout Latin America and West Africa. Incidentally, it is also a governmental structure more vulnerable to coups and similar violent takeovers, as the President being in conflict with the Legislature often leads to these snap power grabs rather than more well-defined transitions of power after elections.

The US idea that the different branches would have checks and balances against each other was rendered pointless the moment the first political parties were developed.

Well, that's another big difference between the US system and systems in countries with more settled populations. Regional parties (the Scottish National Party being a large and distinct block of voters in the UK, the uMkhonto weSizwe as a Zulu nationalist group in South Africa, the Taiwan Solidarity Union as a Taiwanese nativist faction, or Otzma Yehudit in Israel which draws its doctrine from a single ultra-nationalist Rabbi Meir Kahane) can all exist in parliamentary systems in a way that a Mormon Party or a Texas Party or an African-American Party has failed to materialize in the United States.

The idea of checks and balances doesn't work when you're forced into coalition with one of the two dominant (heavily coastal) parties to have any sway in Congress or within the Presidential administration. And that goes beyond just "Voting for President". The Democrats don't nominate bureaucratic leaders (Sec of State, Attorney General, etc), the President does. This gives enormous influence to a singular individual who functions as both Party Leader and National Leader.

Compare this to Brazil or Germany or India or Israel, where power-sharing agreements between caucusing parties encourage the incoming Prime Minister to choose from the leaders of aligned party groups to fill cabinet positions. There's an immediate payoff to being the head of a small but influential partisan group under the PM system in a way that the American system doesn't have.

Now, do you want Anthony Blinken or Janet Yellen to have to hold a Congressional seat and act as Secretary of State or Secretary of Treasury? Idk. I've seen Brits scoff at this system as being its own kind of mess. But I can imagine a country in which a Yellen-equivalent head of the Liberals for Better Economic Policy Party has half a dozen seats and Blinken's Americans for NATO Party has half a dozen seats, and this is what Biden needs to be Prime Minister, so he appoints them to his cabinet as a trade-in for their support.

[-] Hossenfeffer@feddit.uk 8 points 6 hours ago

Do you think if the electoral college was banned that criminals would give up theirs? Wake up, the only thing that stops a bad guy with an electoral college is a good guy with an electoral college!

[-] Jagothaciv@kbin.earth 11 points 7 hours ago

Well yea, this country is held hostage by the shitbag wealth class. Get rid of them. Tax them out of the wealth they lied, cheated, and stole via tax schemes, loopholes, and other criminal activity. We still have the power.

[-] some_guy@lemmy.sdf.org 3 points 2 hours ago

As long as they're able to mislead a bunch of stupid idiots to think that things that don't affect them, such as trans rights, they'll keep winning. Class solidarity is impossible when your fellow-poor believe that immigrants are the reason they're poor. Unfortunately, they've succeeded in keeping people stupid and uneducated.

[-] Asafum@feddit.nl 12 points 6 hours ago* (last edited 6 hours ago)

What are you talking about, Bozos and Muskrat absolutely earned the 100 billion increase in their wealth over the last 10 years! They just Work Harder™ and are More Valuable™ than us!

/Wrist

[-] GiddyGap@lemm.ee 2 points 6 hours ago

Problem is that half the population is willing to keep the wealth class in power. And, ironically, many in that half of the population are among the poorest in the nation who believe the wealth will eventually trickle down to them.

[-] kenjen@sopuli.xyz 5 points 8 hours ago

This isn't news. I mean, even if it is just now true, the United States being a "Democratic Republic" that promised citizens the vote and then kept a body who basically sat around to subvert the popular vote when things got close was largely considered to be another aspect of the USA's rather f****d up interpretation of "freedom".

[-] Suavevillain@lemmy.world 2 points 6 hours ago

It is wild to have your state's vote almost predetermined before you cast it.

[-] rsuri@lemmy.world 2 points 7 hours ago

It all goes back to the negotiation at the start of the country: "We want to vote" vs. "We don't want those people to vote"

[-] Drusas@fedia.io 60 points 17 hours ago

However, many other delegates were adamant that there be an indirect way of electing the president to provide a buffer against what Thomas Jefferson called “well-meaning, but uninformed people.”

How disappointed he would be to see his idea for protecting against decisions being made by the uninformed masses having been so subverted by the very system he supported.

[-] CluelessLemmyng@lemmy.sdf.org 1 points 1 hour ago

The system he supported wasn't one where the House was capped at a limit causing the Electoral college to be skewed towards the minority.

Issues with the electoral college can be resolved by getting rid of the Reapportionment Act and moving towards Star or RCV voting. Both are significantly easier to do than passing an Amendment to get rid of the EC.

[-] errer@lemmy.world 18 points 14 hours ago

Any system that remains static for decades inevitably gets gamed by the powers that be. Sadly it seems we might be past the point of no return for this country…this election is everything

[-] MyOpinion@lemm.ee 84 points 17 hours ago
[-] stoy@lemmy.zip 33 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago)

Yep, but you also need to get rid of FPTP.

Without that, gerrymendring won't work, and you'll actually be able to get more than two parties as realistic optiobs to vote for.

[-] acosmichippo@lemmy.world 10 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

the inherent problem is you'd need some of the less populous states to voluntarily give their disproportionate power away. Even if they agree at the time that a popular vote is in their favor, that doesn't mean it will be forever. It's in their best interest to never give that power up.

[-] HakFoo@lemmy.sdf.org 8 points 14 hours ago

Maybe it's time to re-randomize the map. Six Californias, merge a couple Dakotas, and a new state called "Steve" in the middle of Texas for no good reason.

States seem to be a classic seemed-sensible-in-1790 hack, goofier and less relevant as time goes on. At best you get arbitrage plays, finding the most comfortable jurisdiction for your particular graft. At worst, it seems to be a great line for the scum too stupid and/or crooked to get a federal position to settle at.

I wonder if a UK-style model, where the regional governments are devolved narrow lists of things they can play at government with, would work better.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 3 points 13 hours ago

Luv me states. Luv me history. But realistically speaking, if they could be abolished and replaced with nearly any other modern system of national/regional government organization, it would be massive improvement.

[-] HK65@sopuli.xyz 2 points 12 hours ago

You "only" need to convince enough of the current states to elect a president, then they can just join that compact that has states always give their electoral votes to the winner of the popular vote.

It's only as hard as electing a president, but you need to get a lot of state officials on board.

[-] acosmichippo@lemmy.world 1 points 2 hours ago

I'm not convinced that interstate compact will work. it would be hugely controversial, and with the way the SCOTUS is stacked for the foreseeable future it would probably be deemed unconstitutional.

[-] Huckledebuck@sh.itjust.works 7 points 11 hours ago

Are there many other countries locked in a two party system?

[-] Mataresian@lemmy.dbzer0.com 12 points 10 hours ago

US, UK, Australia, New Zealand and some other smaller countries.

[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 8 points 9 hours ago
[-] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 6 points 8 hours ago* (last edited 8 hours ago)

Australia's isn't based on FPTP or anything explicitly, nefariously, anti-democratic — except the part where media ownership is one of the most monopolised of all western "democracies", or the part where most state and federal politicians are financed by the wealthiest individuals and corporations (not in the American direct payment, openly corrupt, kind of way. More in the golden parachute, regulatory capture, quid pro quo kind of way).

Interesting how 5 eyes are all stuck in a plutocratic two-party system, huh? Almost like the MIC and most advanced mass surveillance apparatus in history has a lot more influence over our politics than any of us realise...

[-] EatATaco@lemm.ee 2 points 6 hours ago

It's a product of our fptp voting system, so any country that has this is going to trend towards two parties.

[-] Kecessa@sh.itjust.works 5 points 9 hours ago

It's not just the electoral college that causes that issue though, first past the post is the culprit in Canada and our lack of precedent for minority alliances doesn't help.

[-] anticolonialist@lemmy.world 23 points 15 hours ago

And they won't let go of it because the Electoral College keeps the wealthy in power.

[-] EatATaco@lemm.ee 1 points 6 hours ago

This is such a lazy, circle jerk answer. And also patently wrong because both parties have wealthy interests, and one would love to get rid of the EC because it would give them more power.

The answer is much more obvious: it would require a constitutional amendment which would require a bunch of states and representatives voting to dilute their power and the power of the people they represent when it comes to choosing the POTUS.

[-] dhork@lemmy.world 2 points 4 hours ago

The National Popular Vote movement is a shortcut around the need for a constitutional amendment. States that sign on to it change their EC allocation process so that their state's votes go to the winner of the national vote -- but it only kicks in when enough states sign on to constitute a majority of EC votes.

IIRC it has passed in enough states to be just over 200 EC votes, but getting the last 70 will be a tough process. Still, it is an easier lift than an amendment. And maybe if it ever passes and makes the EC irrelevant there might be more momentum around the amendment to get rid of it altogether.

[-] jordanlund@lemmy.world 4 points 12 hours ago

As loathe as I am to use a BS argument...

Both Sides are wealthy. ;)

[-] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 12 points 14 hours ago

what other country ever did?

[-] panicnow@lemmy.world 4 points 6 hours ago

The article points out France, Finland, Argentina.

[-] EatATaco@lemm.ee 1 points 6 hours ago

Read the article? Lol I just knee jerk react to the headline.

[-] PugJesus@lemmy.world 16 points 14 hours ago* (last edited 14 hours ago)

The Roman Republic.

No, really - the Tribal Assembly, the democratic legislature of the Republic, was divided by tribes, and tribes sorted according to geographic residence. Urban tribes got 4 votes, and rural tribes got 31 votes. Just like today!

[sobbing]

[-] Sam_Bass@lemmy.world 4 points 13 hours ago

thx 4 the info. always nice to learn some history. one of my favorite subjects in school

[-] Dasus@lemmy.world 37 points 17 hours ago

Pretend democracy

[-] Lightrider@sh.itjust.works 2 points 9 hours ago

Goddamnedfascists

[-] oce@jlai.lu 24 points 17 hours ago

The title should probably specify "for a presidential election". France uses an electoral college for its Sénat, it's made of regional/departmental elected people.

[-] SwordInStone@lemmy.world 1 points 11 hours ago

does it work like us presidential election tho? or are senators in France in the same "level" as electors in the US (i. e. there is no intermediate step between a voting person and elected one)?

[-] oce@jlai.lu 4 points 11 hours ago* (last edited 11 hours ago)

Senators are elected by a college of locally elected people. Those locally elected people were elected, during various kinds of prior local elections, by direct universal suffrage (one adult citizen = one vote).

[-] WhatAmLemmy@lemmy.world 4 points 9 hours ago

This doesn't really explain the difference, if any. Americans have one adult citizen = one vote. The core problem with their college is that it's not representative of the population, so the number of electors from a low population state can be the same as a high population state, effectively giving those citizens significantly more control in federal elections. It's geographical discrimination, and entirely anti-democratic. How is yours different?

[-] csm10495@sh.itjust.works 11 points 15 hours ago* (last edited 15 hours ago)

Something something healthcare is a right elsewhere too something something

We can and should do better.

[-] CharlesDarwin@lemmy.world 5 points 16 hours ago* (last edited 16 hours ago)

USA! USA!

Look, I really do love my country. As unfashionable as that sometimes seems on the left. But it ain't perfect. There are a lot of things that need worked on. Our healthcare situation is subpar. Our labor protections - bleh. Same for consumer protections. There are lots of things we could do to study other models and try to bring them here (except for the regressives here that hold everything back, that is).

But one of the very worst is our Electoral College and the way the House is capped. The Senate system should get an overhaul, too. Two Senators from every state, no matter how many people live there? The EC was a slavery era thing and should be abolished, but the Senate thing should get an overhaul as well. I don't know the kinds of populations the 13 colonies had, but I doubt there was anything like the magnitude of California/Texas/Florida/New York/PA/etc vs. Wyoming. Maybe the makeup of states should get reconsidered if we cannot change the number of Senators - maybe split up California into smaller states, maybe combine some of the flyover states that have almost no one in them...

[-] Sop@lemmy.blahaj.zone 1 points 9 hours ago

Forgot to mention the genocide you guys are funding, the millions of other brown people killed by your military and the wealth extraction you’re doing in Africa and South America.

load more comments
view more: next ›
this post was submitted on 15 Oct 2024
500 points (98.1% liked)

politics

19036 readers
3272 users here now

Welcome to the discussion of US Politics!

Rules:

  1. Post only links to articles, Title must fairly describe link contents. If your title differs from the site’s, it should only be to add context or be more descriptive. Do not post entire articles in the body or in the comments.

Links must be to the original source, not an aggregator like Google Amp, MSN, or Yahoo.

Example:

  1. Articles must be relevant to politics. Links must be to quality and original content. Articles should be worth reading. Clickbait, stub articles, and rehosted or stolen content are not allowed. Check your source for Reliability and Bias here.
  2. Be civil, No violations of TOS. It’s OK to say the subject of an article is behaving like a (pejorative, pejorative). It’s NOT OK to say another USER is (pejorative). Strong language is fine, just not directed at other members. Engage in good-faith and with respect! This includes accusing another user of being a bot or paid actor. Trolling is uncivil and is grounds for removal and/or a community ban.
  3. No memes, trolling, or low-effort comments. Reposts, misinformation, off-topic, trolling, or offensive.
  4. Vote based on comment quality, not agreement. This community aims to foster discussion; please reward people for putting effort into articulating their viewpoint, even if you disagree with it.
  5. No hate speech, slurs, celebrating death, advocating violence, or abusive language. This will result in a ban. Usernames containing racist, or inappropriate slurs will be banned without warning

We ask that the users report any comment or post that violate the rules, to use critical thinking when reading, posting or commenting. Users that post off-topic spam, advocate violence, have multiple comments or posts removed, weaponize reports or violate the code of conduct will be banned.

All posts and comments will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. This means that some content that violates the rules may be allowed, while other content that does not violate the rules may be removed. The moderators retain the right to remove any content and ban users.

That's all the rules!

Civic Links

Register To Vote

Citizenship Resource Center

Congressional Awards Program

Federal Government Agencies

Library of Congress Legislative Resources

The White House

U.S. House of Representatives

U.S. Senate

Partnered Communities:

News

World News

Business News

Political Discussion

Ask Politics

Military News

Global Politics

Moderate Politics

Progressive Politics

UK Politics

Canadian Politics

Australian Politics

New Zealand Politics

founded 1 year ago
MODERATORS