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this post was submitted on 28 Sep 2024
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I would hesitate to call it terrorism, it was targeted at military persons with an intent at military disruption and any public casualties were collateral damage. It may have been a war crime though.
I was a war crime, I can't find any way to even debate it not being.
Sabotaging dual-use communications devices that are used, specifically, by members of an enemy paramilitary group is not a clear-cut war crime. On the other hand, there is a very strong argument that 'blind-firing' such devices en-masse without regard for the proximity of civilians or possibility of civilian harm is a war crime via insufficiently discerning use of force. But even that is something that could probably be argued in a legitimately-unbiased international court - not that it'll ever fucking get to one, considering Israel's history with international courts.
Either way, it's a shite move that was only meant to escalate the situation so Bibi can stay in power a few more minutes. Vile shit.
"stress that booby-traps associated with objects in normal civilian daily use are prohibited, and that booby-traps must not be used in association with protected persons, protected objects (such as medical supplies, gravesites and cultural or religious property) or internationally recognized protective emblems or signs (such as the red cross and red crescent).[3] Several manuals further specify that booby-traps must not be used in connection with certain objects likely to attract civilians, such as children’s toys."
A cell phone is a normal civil daily use item and would attract use by civilians.
This specifically would come from Rule 80, pertaining to booby traps. https://ihl-databases.icrc.org/en/customary-ihl/v1/rule80
As these were remotely detonated, they do not fit the definition of a booby trap. Rather, the issue becomes a war crime because of Israel's choice to detonate, which was very likely done in a manner that was reckless and without regard for collateral damage.
So would you classify them as an improvised explosive device instead? That the department of homeland security says are used by "criminals, vandals, terrorists, suicide bombers, and insurgents"
That wouldn't be a good look either
Didn't say it was a good look. In fact, I quite explicitly noted that it was a shit move and likely a war crime. Just probably not because of international law on booby traps, but because of international law on discriminate use of force.
I think you're splitting hairs.
The intent of the inclusion of boobytraps within that definition is pretty clear. Ordinary objects, when used as the vector for unexpected explosive discharge, become something distrustful and fearsome. How does one know if a device they are purchasing or picking up is one that's been modified to explode during normal usage?
Almost like someone would say they booby trapped the devices. The intent was clear as you stated.
Please, point out to me which prohibition here was violated.
I think you're looking for excuses. Fuck's sake, splitting hairs? That's quite literally the legal fucking definition.
You're right, that's also why maskirovka is illegal. If you disguise a tank as a house, what comes next?
/s
Also why anti-tank landmines are illegal. If you disguise an explosive under a road, what other dastardly things can you do?
/s
No, the distinction being made between article 4 and 5 is intended to separate intentionally and mindfully placed mines on military objectives where the risk of civilian injury is low and explosives that are 'remotely sent' where the locations must be accurately recorded to prevent accidental discharge after the conflict has ceased.
I see no way to argue that they can ensure the pagers or radios were placed on such 'military targets', nor can they account or record the locations of any that failed to discharge. For all the Lebanese know, there are pagers or radios still in circulation that did not explode on the day of the attack, or that there are more explosives in other mobile devices that have yet to be activated, or were abandoned for use for whatever reason and may go off unexpectedly in the future. It is exactly that uncertainty and the use of everyday objects that makes this terror attack a war crime - not that it matters to a body that has been completely neutered and is incapable of holding Israel accountable without the consent of the US.
Hiding behind the verbiage of the UN charter is cowardly.
Landmines are addressed entirely separately, but thanks for confirming you don't have the first clue you're talking about.
"How dare you quote the law when talking about the law"
Sorry, your feelings on the matter override international law, I know.
I'm not sure what you're even on about, if the pagers (in your view) don't qualify as 'booby traps', they'd still fit the description of 'other devices' that are in the same restriction:
I personally think their being disguised as civilian objects is of particular note and makes the offence more severe, but even without that classification it's considered a war crime
It would be a tall order to prove that the pagers were actually and exclusively distributed to Hezbollah combatants
As with above, they had no reasonable way of knowing that the pagers would be directed as intended or be on their intended target at the time of discharge
Pretty clearly caused incidental loss of civilian life and injury, especially in relation to the concrete military advantage. I haven't even heard stated any material military advantage gained from this other than relating to the fear they intended to evoke
No matter how you're slicing it, under Protocol II of the UN the pager attacks would be a violation and subject to war crime charges. It being a literal 'booby trap', 'mine', or 'other device' is immaterial to its criminality.
You're forgetting a couple or statements there. These were absolutely booby traps and command detonated traps exist.
"Booby traps and other devices" is one legal thing, there's no legal distinction. Pager bombs are always a war crime regardless of circumstances.
No. The distribution is as indiscriminate as leaving command detonated mines in place. (also a war crime). You cannot ensure those mines only target combatants after you leave. The indiscriminate distribution is a war crime as much as the indiscriminate activation.
Hezbollah isn't just a paramilitary group, though, it's an actual political party in Lebanon.
You'd have to have an extremely narrow understanding of who Hezbollah even is to claim the attack was legitimate
Not to mention the intentional fear the strike created that now legitimizes Hezbollah's mandate against Israel. Yea, it was 'shite', but it seems pretty well designed to manufacture fear and chaos and to bait Lebanon into a broader conflict.
I don't think you can just call things you don't like a 'war crime'
The disguising of a military weapons in the form of common civilian used equipment to trick your opponent is a war crime.
It was a war crime in 2008 when a bomb was disguised as a spare tire in an SUV used to kill the head of Hezbollah’s international operations, whether we agree the target needed to be taken out or not. A drone strike would be "lawful" a car bomb is not.
A cell phone is common civilian equipment. This isn't "whatever I think."
Far from an uncontested view, at least insofar as why it was a war crime.
I mean. It legally doesn't fall under the definition of terrorism, so there is that argument, lol.
What definition of terrorism? What legal system? There's no objective, scientific measurement for "terrorism". It's purely political ideology.
I'm responding to someone saying you can't debate it's a war crime. And your response is terrorism is not real.
You are a poor Russian troll, sir. And you should be worried someone will throw you out a window for your bad arguments.
We can't leave mines out in a place all the civilians have left because they might one day get found by a civilian. Actively introducing bombs to the public market is absolutely a war crime.