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this post was submitted on 25 Jul 2023
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Ask Lemmy
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Migration goes beyond sheer numbers. The 3.8k users are probably the one that were the most attached to initial Reddit, hence people who would contribute the more. I would rather be with those 3.8k users than the millions of people okay with staying on Reddit despite Spez's decisions.
I hope that once Lemmy is a bit more polished (instance blocking, account migration, hot filtering working etc.), we will gradually see a second wave of arrivals.
But if that were the case, wouldn't GDPR already be used to take down TOR or torrents or any other p2p tech? All it would take is someone's personal information being on them, right? (I'm really asking I have no idea)
Then you adapt to that threat with user exports or built in auto migration methods.
The distributed nature makes it much harder to down the fediverse with legal claims than it does reddit/twitter/whatever already. Just being hosted in different countries makes these claims a stunning pain in the ass, as many countries do not require any compliance with the DMCA.
That's a good point. Right now if I send something out, even if the company I submitted it to deletes it from their servers, doesn't mean other users will delete copies of the data I want to have deleted. Only the party I submitted it to will have to delete it.
Just take a screenshot of a tweet or a LinkedIn profile or whatever someone posts here in the Fediverse, anyone can capture a copy of it.
What makes it impossible? Why would any given instance maintainer be responsible for the data on someone else's instance? Would it not fall on the GDPR requester to make that request of each individual instance?
So then if someone requests that Gmail delete all their email data, is Google then responsible for making sure any emails sent out from it's server to another is also deleted from those external servers?
Just in case you guys are wondering, there’s probably dozens of us enjoying the fuck out of this conversation. Thank you for asking questions I wouldn’t think of asking. On behalf of all three of us lurking.
Lol yeah this is great.
I don't have the answer but I think of it like this.
Email is essentially a direct conversation between you and someone in the same room but you may extend (cc) to those people in the house. There is an implicit "I am including you in the conversation"
Lemmy on the other hand is more akin to talking to someone in a crowded bar but the conversation is recorded and anyone over the world has the ability to listen to the conversation at any given time.
Apples and oranges.
Interesting perspective, but then cannot we consider that Lemmy users are aware that they are including all of the Fediverse in their conversation? That way Lemmy instances could be treated in the same way email providers are
See https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/right-to-be-forgotten/
Once the "controller has made the personal data public", they have legal obligations. Gmail doesn't make my data public, generally.
Hm, I see. A shortcoming of the law, when they probably did not imagine something such as Lemmy or Mastodon happening. By the way, how does Mastodon deal with that? They've been around for much longer
I checked Mastodon briefly. It appears they are currently not in compliance. There are open issues on GitHub, but nothing looks close.
I really want to hear the answer to this
See https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/right-to-be-forgotten/
Once the "controller has made the personal data public", they have legal obligations. When you send an email, you are not making it public.
Essentially yes, it's called the Right to Erasure or the Right to be Forgotten. If the user is in a country that adheres to GDPR and the company controlling the data operates in a country that also uses GDPR, then that right applies.
The only reason Google/Gmail wouldnt delete (or wouldn't be able to delete) some of your data would be if they had a lawful or legitimate basis for holding onto it.
I can't think of a reason Google would give for hanging on to your data but that doesn't mean there isn't one, but they'd have to notify you of that reason as part of their response to your request.
Unless these instances are showing ads and selling data, I'm pretty sure they're protected from the law. Not only that but if you're not hosting in the EU that law doesn't apply to you.
The problem here is how does that work? If I host something in the USA, how is someone going to bring a lawsuit towards me if I am also in the USA?
Asking honest questions here. As this just sounds like a lot of chest thumping from the EU.
"Provided your company doesn't specifically target its services at individuals in the EU, it is not subject to the rules of the GDPR."
Just say, we don't provide or target EU individuals and you're free.
Yeah, but if you don't have any assets in the EU for them to seize, and if you're not present in the bloc yourself it doesn't matter for shit. They have no jurisdiction or ability to enforce unless you really, really want to operate inside of their market at scale.
This is a big issue of eu regulations. They are needed, but don't account for non profit initiatives, in practice favoring big players
Well, the upside and the downside of GDPR is that if you're not a member of the EU, you can basically just tell them to go fuck themselves because they have little to no actual power to impact you since you're not within their jurisdiction.
I'm never to sure about GDPR. The spirit of the law is that any identifiable information has to indeed be removed.
However, does a Lemmy username really fit that definition? If John Doe has all of his Lemmy content under CoolNick89, I'm not sure GDPR applies.
Emails, especially if they contain first and last name, are a different story, but those would only be known by the host instance.
Interesting, thanks. I'll research this further.
IP addresses make more sense, because they can be used to be cross-checked with your ISP to know who you are.
If you don't tell anyone your username and use a VPN, there is no way for people to guess your Lemmy username
The law specifically names "online identifier".
The data subjects are identifiable if they can be directly or indirectly identified, especially by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or one of several special characteristics, which expresses the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, commercial, cultural or social identity of these natural persons. In practice, these also include all data which are or can be assigned to a person in any kind of way. For example, the telephone, credit card or personnel number of a person, account data, number plate, appearance, customer number or address are all personal data.
https://gdpr-info.eu/issues/personal-data/
Or those 3.8k users were on Apollo, RIF etc that didn’t bring any revenue to Reddit regardless.
They could care less about these users leaving, there are plenty of new angsty teenagers to take their place
If they're the same that generated significantly more content, then it's still a loss for reddit
It doesn't really matter, though. The fact that I'm here and not using reddit has netted a huge improvement in my happiness.
To be honest, I don't really care if more reddit users come here. They can keep their bad takes and dick-swinging contests on reddit.
A very good point. To be honest, if they are happy with that new demographic, and we are happy here, everyone's happy
Unfortunately, as one of those 3.8k daily users, I'm still using Reddit mostly. Lemmy has a long way to go before I drop Reddit all the way.
Mass migration or not, I'm happier to be here with all of you.
I have to admit, when I came here I was hoping this would be a mass migration, but these days I think Lemmy is already great even without the bulk of Reddit's user base joining. Easier to participate in conversions, less trolling, less aggression, fewer bots...
Not saying I don't want Lemmy to grow more, but it's a fantastic place already.
yeah people here are generally nicer. I do wish there more more active niche communities though
less popcorn </3
But it's manageable.
I think the problem is, Lemmy's greatest strength (Fediverse) is also the thing that's going to hold back a mass migration at this point in time. Onboarding with Reddit is a breeze. You make an account, it asks you what your interests are and location based communities and you're off to the races. Every community on reddit is immediately available to interact with.
When I came to lemmy I almost gave up on my initial onboarding and I'm a pretty tech savvy guy. I didn't know where to go to start. There's all these different lemmy sites and I didn't know if they were the same thing or different and if I was signing up to the right one. Account creation failed initially without giving an error message (I'll chalk that one up to just a bug). There didn't seem to be any NSFW communities until I figured out the instance thing. You're told you can use your account across instances but when you go to another instance via it's domain you can't interact with it, you have to get to another instance through your instance which is confusing as a newcomer. Any one of these issues is a falling off point for a less inclined visitor.
I'm not saying the fediverse thing is bad but the unfortunate byproduct of it is a difficult experience for newcomers, especially when you compare it to Reddit. I'm hoping growth in the community will bring in talent to solve for this initial experience or possibly apps which can handle all of this more seamlessly.
I wonder if federated instances are something that can just become cultural knowledge over time, like any other technical piece of software. To a degree using reddit is like that to newcomers with it's unique thread style and "independently" moderated subs. Lemmy just took it to another level.
Very good point. It will be generational maybe too. As younger people enter the Lemmy pool, they may not find it to be that unfriendly since it will be what they are used to.
I wish some of the subs I frequented the most were a bit more active here, but I guess it's a bit chicken and egg. Need to interact more with Lemmy ourselves to motivate others to.
How many users moved away from Lemmy.world to another instance?